First, Do No Harm.
 

last wednesday, i left straight from work to a poker tournament my wife and i play at each week. about an hour into it, my mom, who is babysitting, calls and tells me my youngest daughter(just turned 1) has not stopped screaming since she woke up from a nap just after my wife had left.

so, since my wife had about twice the chip stack i had(dumb luck), i volunteered to go home to see if i could get her calmed down.

when i got there, she was still crying, and just wouldn't stop. mom had mentioned she had tugged at her ear a couple times, but there was no fever. and for the previous 2-3 days, my other 3 daughters had passed around an upset stomach that resulted in a bit of vomitting. not knowing which was bothering the youngster, i called her doctor at home. he said to take her to the "fast track" at the hospital emergency room. if she had an ear infection, he wanted the antibiotics started immediately.

so, off i go. we get registered in and all, and by that time, the wee one calmed down considerably, and seemed OK. the nurse proceeded to get all the necessaries...blood pressure, heart rate, etc...which made my daughter cry some more. "next", says the nurse, "we need to get her temperature with an anal thermometer." i asked why it was necessary, and she told me that it was more accurate than other means of getting a child's temperature. "thanks, but no thanks" i said. we'll wait until morning to go to her doctor. he's never shoved anything up her ass. so, i left right then.

now, it may very well be more accurate to get a temp that way, but is 1/2 a degree off accurate going to change any doctor's diagnosis? when my triplets were born, they were in intensive care for the first 10 days of their lives, and no doctor ever stuck a foreign object in their butts. they had constant temperature monitoring by something they stuck on their foreheads. they also taught me to take their temperature at home using a thermometer under the arm. there is also a device that takes a temperature immediately from the inner ear. any of these could have been used with very little discomfort, not to mention it was quite obvious by touching her forehead that she did not have a fever.

all i wanted to know is did she have an ear infection. i couldn't see how inserting something in the poor girl's ass had any bearing on that. was i wrong for leaving, or did i do right by protecting her? <font color="white">BTW, she did not have an ear infection, nor did she have an upset stomach. she had a pebble/small rock in her shoe. </font>

cheers!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

I don't really see what you were protecting her from unless you think the nurse was going to be getting off on putting the thermometer up her ass. That being said it does seem a bit strange.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Are you serious? Not exactly responsible parenting.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Taking a child's temperature by rectal thermometer is not uncommon.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Is this summary correct? You took you child to the hospital for good reason, the nurse wanted to take her temperature rectally, and then you decided to leave and postpone her medical attention until the next morning?

Are you insane?

There's nothing wrong with taking a temperature rectally. You've got issues.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
last wednesday, i left straight from work to a poker tournament my wife and i play at each week. about an hour into it, my mom, who is babysitting, calls and tells me my youngest daughter(just turned 1) has not stopped screaming since she woke up from a nap just after my wife had left.

so, since my wife had about twice the chip stack i had(dumb luck), i volunteered to go home to see if i could get her calmed down.

when i got there, she was still crying, and just wouldn't stop. mom had mentioned she had tugged at her ear a couple times, but there was no fever. and for the previous 2-3 days, my other 3 daughters had passed around an upset stomach that resulted in a bit of vomitting. not knowing which was bothering the youngster, i called her doctor at home. he said to take her to the "fast track" at the hospital emergency room. if she had an ear infection, he wanted the antibiotics started immediately.

so, off i go. we get registered in and all, and by that time, the wee one calmed down considerably, and seemed OK. the nurse proceeded to get all the necessaries...blood pressure, heart rate, etc...which made my daughter cry some more. "next", says the nurse, "we need to get her temperature with an anal thermometer." i asked why it was necessary, and she told me that it was more accurate than other means of getting a child's temperature. "thanks, but no thanks" i said. we'll wait until morning to go to her doctor. he's never shoved anything up her ass. so, i left right then.

now, it may very well be more accurate to get a temp that way, but is 1/2 a degree off accurate going to change any doctor's diagnosis? when my triplets were born, they were in intensive care for the first 10 days of their lives, and no doctor ever stuck a foreign object in their butts. they had constant temperature monitoring by something they stuck on their foreheads. they also taught me to take their temperature at home using a thermometer under the arm. there is also a device that takes a temperature immediately from the inner ear. any of these could have been used with very little discomfort, not to mention it was quite obvious by touching her forehead that she did not have a fever.

all i wanted to know is did she have an ear infection. i couldn't see how inserting something in the poor girl's ass had any bearing on that. was i wrong for leaving, or did i do right by protecting her? <font color="white">BTW, she did not have an ear infection, nor did she have an upset stomach. she had a pebble/small rock in her shoe. </font>

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

you do know what response is coming soon? just warning...

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

You know what I think? You want to be the only one who gets to stick something in your daughter's rectum and you let your jealousy cloud your judgement.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

i've been through ear infections before, and was almost certain this was not one. kids pull their ears for lots of reasons, and when there is an infection, there is almost always a fever.

cheers!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a child's temperature by rectal thermometer is not uncommon.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am aware of this, i just don't understand why it is. if an ear thermometr is good enough for a family doctor, why isn't it for a hospital? if a stick on probe thingy is good enough for a newborn intensive care unit, why isn't it good enough for a non-emergency section of an emergency room?

cheers!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

I'm not entirely sure what you were "protecting" the kid from. First, she's certainly not old enough to be as uncomfortable with the idea as her father is. Second, this is a medical professional we're talking about here, and your own doctor told you to take her here. There's a reason they're doing the job and you (and most of us) aren't, and that's because they know what they're doing.

Doc wanted to see what was going on and said to get it on antibiotics right away if it was an ear infection. Taking the child's temperature is going to be part of the diagnosis.

Where did you get your medical degree from? Sorry to come off like an ass, but I really have no idea what you were so worried about.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a child's temperature by rectal thermometer is not uncommon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor does it cause harm. The kid will never remember, and really, it is not like the thermometer is the size of a dildo.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Read this link (THE ENTIRE THING).

There is some info in that link that is very applicable to your questions.

That said, you went to the hospital for their help and advice. I think you should have taken it. You'd have really been sorry if this turns/turned out to be something serious.


FWIW, it seems you have some problems with the notion of having things inserted into one's anus. (Please note that doing such does not equate to homosexuality). Measuring infants' temperatures via the rectum is not unusual. Further food for thought is that in a few decades you too will/should be undergoing regular rectal exams by your physician...


I'm not a parent yet, but I think I can at least rationalize your protectiveness over your children. Kudos for that, anyway (kinda).

I think in the future it would be mutually beneficial for you to have a thorough, open-minded, discussion with your health practitioners regarding any health questions you have. It will help everyone find a common ground, and the 'ideal' treatment course will from there.....


Adam

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

perhaps different hospitals/centers have different protocols (insurance, legislation, patient care issues).... and protocols may change with continued, updated information.

I don't know for sure... but these are possibilities.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

You're an idiot. I hope your daughter is OK. I hope next time your wife takes care of her.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

i thought this was a "LOST" thread discussion of episode "do no harm"

you made me waste 2 minutes

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

let me say that, in the interest of being as succinct as possible, i left out some things. first, my daughter had calmed down on the car ride to the hospital, and for the 20 minutes or so we waited to register, she seemed just fine. she wanted to read books/play, etc. she only started fussing again when the nurse started getting blood pressure, etc...i felt very confident in my decision to leave, and would not have if i felt i was putting her in danger.

i felt strongly there was nothing really wrong with her. there have been other times when my other daughters had sporadic fevers with no other symptoms where the doctor told us to give it a day or so on tylenol and call back if the fever comes back, etc... and i thought something really was wrong. in one instance, i was insistent that she see a doctor that day, and it turned out to be a UTI, and that daughter had to get a spinal tap to make sure it had not become meningitis...when she was 6 months old and in the hospital for 5 days.

so, this was a PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE, and i'm not one to take sickness lightly. sometimes a fathers instinct is as good as gold, as it was in this case(did you read the results in white?).

cheers!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

On a related note- how can you tell the difference between an oral thermometer and a rectal themometer?

Answer in white-
<font color="white">The taste </font>


As for the OP, I think you made a huge overreaction. Rectal thermometers are used all the times on kids. I don't understand your reluctance to allow a health care professional help your child. It wasn't like they wanted to perform some risky surgery!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
so, this was a PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE, and i'm not one to take sickness lightly. sometimes a fathers instinct is as good as gold, as it was in this case(did you read the results in white?).

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

1) When posting results in white, its normally done with excess space so as to clue in the rest of us. Just adding a sentence didn't separate anything enough for me to see it.

2) You're too results-oriented. You'd probably feel like a tool if it hadn't been a rock in her shoe.

3) I still think you have anal issues. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes a fathers instinct is as good as gold, as it was in this case(did you read the results in white?).
!

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason people are reacting the way they are is becasue your "instinct" only kicked in when your child was going to be anally penatrated. So, people don't think this has anything to do with your paternal instincts to protect your child. They think you oversensitive to anal penatration.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
if an ear thermometr is good enough for a family doctor, why isn't it for a hospital?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I haven't had an ear thermometer used on me for many years, if ever, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but would a family doctor use an ear thermometer on someone that they suspected had an ear infection? Wouldn't that just cause more damage and discomfort if there was an ear-related problem?

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]

The reason people are reacting the way they are is becasue your "instinct" only kicked in when your child was going to be anally penatrated. So, people don't think this has anything to do with your paternal instincts to protect your child. They think you oversensitive to anal penatration.

[/ QUOTE ]

i may perhaps be oversensitive to anal penetration, but i really don't think so. my wife has no real problem with it, and i can remember getting a suppository or two when growing up, and i'm sure i got a rectal temperature taken as an infant before the other ways were even invented. i am no less a man because of those things. now, one time, my wife tried to put a finger in there, and i didn't like it, and won't let her do that anymore.

the problem i have in this case, is that it was completely unnecessary. they could have simply looked into her ear. if it was red, then they could have proceeded accordingly. they didn't even need to check blood pressure and heart rate. plus, one can get a temperature by other means. why must they give maximum discomfort to take a temp?

cheers!

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
why must they give maximum discomfort to take a temp?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, it's not a louisville slugger

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]


They think you oversensitive to anal penatration.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admit that I am guilty as this as well.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why must they give maximum discomfort to take a temp?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, it's not a louisville slugger

[/ QUOTE ]

And look at the handle of the guy who posted it.

Somehow I dobut they're going to assault your child's ass with anything that could potentially harm her...like I said, they've got the med school educations...

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

I wouldn't let anyone put anything in my daughters ass without proper negotiations first.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

the problem i have in this case, is that it was completely unnecessary. they could have simply looked into her ear. if it was red, then they could have proceeded accordingly. they didn't even need to check blood pressure and heart rate.

these are PROFESSIONALS. You're convinced that they should only be checking for an ear infection because she tugged on her ear? last time I checked, you weren't tripdad M.D., so you're in no position to deem what is necessary and unnecessary.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? Not exactly responsible parenting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Are you a doctor?

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]

these are PROFESSIONALS. You're convinced that they should only be checking for an ear infection because she tugged on her ear? last time I checked, you weren't tripdad M.D., so you're in no position to deem what is necessary and unnecessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Much better put than my "are you a doctor?" question.

-Brad

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

But not quite as prick-ish as my "Where did you get your medical degree from?" line... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't let anyone put anything in my daughters ass without proper negotiations first.

[/ QUOTE ]
When can we begin negotiations? Conference calls or in person?

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

I would have called her doctor again at home and found out if this was the recommended procedure. The nurse should at least be able to give a logical reason why the other temperature taking methods are not sufficient.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i've been through ear infections before, and was almost certain this was not one. kids pull their ears for lots of reasons, and when there is an infection, there is almost always a fever.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all true. Some people have chronic sinus infections for years, for instance, without fevers. Sometimes they don't even realize it. A friend of mine had that, bad enough that eventually she had to go through all kinds of surgeries. A sinus sounds as good as an ear to me.

Besides, haven't you ever had an infected toe or something? I've had some pretty fierce infections without running a temperature.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
let me say that, in the interest of being as succinct as possible, i left out some things. first, my daughter had calmed down on the car ride to the hospital, and for the 20 minutes or so we waited to register, she seemed just fine. she wanted to read books/play, etc. she only started fussing again when the nurse started getting blood pressure, etc...i felt very confident in my decision to leave, and would not have if i felt i was putting her in danger.

i felt strongly there was nothing really wrong with her. there have been other times when my other daughters had sporadic fevers with no other symptoms where the doctor told us to give it a day or so on tylenol and call back if the fever comes back, etc... and i thought something really was wrong. in one instance, i was insistent that she see a doctor that day, and it turned out to be a UTI, and that daughter had to get a spinal tap to make sure it had not become meningitis...when she was 6 months old and in the hospital for 5 days.

so, this was a PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE, and i'm not one to take sickness lightly. sometimes a fathers instinct is as good as gold, as it was in this case(did you read the results in white?).

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

But you didn't know that.

You were just gambling.

I suggest you have anal sex as soon as possible so you can get over this hang-up.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

your daughter will become a porn star specializing in the as[/b]s. that is all.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The nurse should at least be able to give a logical reason why the other temperature taking methods are not sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

She did. She told him (correctly) that it is more accurate.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

You might consider your fatherly instincts to be great, but somehow I doubt that you'd be posting this story if it turns out the next day your daughter had a 105 degree temperature and appropriate medications could have been administered the night before to relieve her.


[ QUOTE ]
when my triplets were born, they were in intensive care for the first 10 days of their lives, and no doctor ever stuck a foreign object in their butts

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you ever think that maybe the procedures for (presumably) premature newborns is different than for a 1 year old? My understanding is that they don't recommend anal thermometers for newborns because they are a lot smaller than 1 year olds and the thermometer can't safely be inserted far enough to get an accurate reading. They'll still do it if they need to get an accurate reading, but will rely on the less accurate armpit for the day to day readings.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

You are a bad father.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If she had an ear infection, he wanted the antibiotics started immediately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
So, off i go. we get registered in and all, and by that time, the wee one calmed down considerably, and seemed OK. the nurse proceeded to get all the necessaries...blood pressure, heart rate, etc...which made my daughter cry some more. "next", says the nurse, "we need to get her temperature with an anal thermometer."

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably said "rectal" thermometer, but not relevant to the story.

[ QUOTE ]
I asked why it was necessary, and she told me that it was more accurate than other means of getting a child's temperature.

[/ QUOTE ]

She's right. It is the most accurate. The pediatricians care about temperature to tenths of a degree to a considerably larger degree than internists. I can't really tell you why--my youngest patient on the floor right now is 81. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you are really interested, I could do a lit search for you while I am on call tomorrow. It is likely to be a ridiculously boring answer.

[ QUOTE ]
"thanks, but no thanks" i said. we'll wait until morning to go to her doctor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you made a mistake, but you really are unlikely to have done any harm.

[ QUOTE ]
He's never shoved anything up her ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you should engage in some introspection about this issue. This is the normal method of taking temperatures in this age group. There are some medicines which would be administered rectally for her as well. Do you think that she cares or will remember? You wipe her ass with wet naps all the time. She's going to get vaginal exams and breast exams during her life as well. There is a fair chance she'll get at least one rectal too. You should also be getting some along the way. Please don't allow your squeamishness to potentially interfere with your health like you did for your daughter.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, it may very well be more accurate to get a temp that way, but is 1/2 a degree off accurate going to change any doctor's diagnosis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. They get picky about this sort of thing. I'll do that lit search because now I'm curious about it.

[ QUOTE ]
When my triplets were born, they were in intensive care for the first 10 days of their lives, and no doctor ever stuck a foreign object in their butts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Rectal temperatures are inappropriate in neonates. It is a safety issue.

[ QUOTE ]
They had constant temperature monitoring by something they stuck on their foreheads. they also taught me to take their temperature at home using a thermometer under the arm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Less accurate, but better than nothing. Your accuracy needs as far as monitoring temperature at home are different than a doc's need to monitor it in a sick kid.

[ QUOTE ]
There is also a device that takes a temperature immediately from the inner ear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps not so good in potential ear infection.

[ QUOTE ]
Any of these could have been used with very little discomfort,

[/ QUOTE ]

The discomfort here wouldn't have been your daughter's. It would have been yours.

[ QUOTE ]
not to mention it was quite obvious by touching her forehead that she did not have a fever.

[/ QUOTE ]

People aren't so great at assessing temperature by touch. I pulled up two metastudies which showed surprising error rate for parents in assessing whether their child had fever. One study showed 76-86% accuracy; the other 82-89%.

[ QUOTE ]
All i wanted to know is did she have an ear infection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you wanted to know quite badly enough.

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't see how inserting something in the poor girl's ass had any bearing on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you REALLY think you have the qualifications to judge this? Blood pressure, heart rate, temperature, and respiratory rate are routine parts of your visit to any doc. These are non-invasive (despite your feelings otherwise), useful, inexpensive measures. We take them as a matter of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Was i wrong for leaving,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you were wrong, and it isn't close.

[ QUOTE ]
or did i do right by protecting her?

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't protect her. You exposed her to (a fairly small) risk of harm.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, she did not have an ear infection, nor did she have an upset stomach. she had a pebble/small rock in her shoe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. No harm done this time. Please consider carefully whether or not you wish to place your own issues ahead of your daughter's health in the future. You should have found out that she had no ear infection earlier, without having to go to your regular doc.

BTW, the use of antibiotics in kids with single episode of ear infection is a subject of debate. Infections will resolve in less than two weeks 80% of the time without antibiotics. (Rate is 95% with antibiotics...some bacteria are resistant to the first line antibiotic choices.) The real reason to treat the infection at all is to try to prevent progression to chronic ear infections or to mastoiditis or meningitis.

Re: First, Do No Harm.
 

Nice to hear from a doctor.

Not that I am one, but I just want to remark on the last lines of yours. I can see a good reason to treat ear infections -- they are excruciating and can give you really sharp, piercing pain. Not like the kind in your foot you can just more or less ignore, either. With an ear infection, every time you chew, open your mouth, swallow, cough, sneeze, yawn, practically even breathe, you can either feel new pain or become very aware of the constant pain you're in. Since it's in your head, it's always at the forefront of your attention and perception. That's hard enough as an adult, but for a kid, it's an even more outsize misery.

I'm sure if I were a parent, I would be pushing for whatever I could to get my kid out of that misery as soon as possible. I've had nasty ear infections, and I wouldn't wish that on anybody.