Re: What the Palestinian Authority Has Been Up To
 

High Desert Poker Man


I think it is unlikely that you understand what exactly these people are celebrating. We care little about how other parts of the world think about us. We in fact care little about what they think in general.


These people are smart enough to associate the US with Israel. The Palestinians can not fight the Israelis on equal footing. So they resort to these tactics. For them, this is a mixture of the French Revolution with D day. At once they prove they are a force to be reckoned with. That even as poor and downtrodden they still have enough pride to fight back and influence OUR lives, instead of us just influencing theirs. That even if they live in shacks they are smart enough to penetrate the most powerful country in the world and cause utter chaos.


The citizens of the US need to realize that Palestinians believe that the US has been indirectly influencing the way of life in the occupied territories for many years. It is a common belief that the US aid to Israel goes into the bullets and bombs that kill their youth. The celebrations are their way of showing the US that they are aware of this, and to let them know they will not sit there like fools and pretend that the US isn't stacking the deck in Israel's favor (sorry to end with a bad poker analogy).

Re: Hetron post and Question
 

Good post Hetron. But I think my worry is that this is exactly what they are celebrating. If you are correct, and I think you may very well be, we should understand that nothing we do will please the Palestinians, unless we destroy Israel. We won't destroy Israel obviously, so we should follow a policy that best serves our self interest in light of this Palestinian belief.

Re: Boris, Lenny, John Ho Posts
 

HDPM - I think that if our (the US) response to the attack is motivated by the desire to prevent future terrorist incidents, then it's imperative that we re-evaluate the Palestinian question at the same time. IMO, the root - of Arab enmity in general and Palestinian hatred in particular - is the US-Israeli relationship. Those little Palestinian kids grow up seeing the Israelis use US helicopters and US missiles and US guns to launch attacks on Palestinian people. When the kids get older their rage grows stronger and some of them inevitably turn into monsters and end up in terrorist cells. The current state of Israeli-Palestinian relations will only continue to nurture generation after generation of terrorists and will lead to countless more deaths. I have no doubt that some of those Palestinians deserve exactly what Isreal does to them. I also have no doubt that Israeli policy is counter productive to ending the cycle of violence. We should think about this when deciding how to respond. I'm of the opinion that an effective response is to either take a Ghandi like approach or the option recommended by Dr. Wogga. I just don't have the stomach for the latter but maybe others do. One thing I'm sure of is that "pinpoint" military strikes similar to the attacks carried out by Isreal are the worst possible solution and will only serve to empower anti-US terrorists. Anyone who thinks taking out bin Laden and his lieutenants will solve the problem has their head in the sand.


BTW - I also went to Berkeley (grad school). You can hurl any insults you feel like. I'm not easily offended but it would be better if you're funny at the same time.

Re: What the Palestinian Authority Has Been Up To
 

Hetron,


Your words anger me greatly.


"For them, this is a mixture of the French Revolution with D day. At once they prove they are a force to be reckoned with."


They do this by killing civilians how f*****g herioc. Did anyone in the US think we were heroes for dropping the A-bomb? If they did they were quite misguided. What was done was necessary to protect american lives. This protects none of these peoples lives and actually endangers them. D-Day you are lucky most of the veterans of WWII are dead. You dishonor the memory of people who fought and died to liberate europe. The fact that you can try to justify these acts and compare them to something that has provided your exsistance is unbelievable. It is sad to see that any american can feel this way. Please never use we in the sentence when talking about americans ever again. You don't deserve to.


Zach

In Response to my own post
 

I apoligize for my last post. I am just getting very angry with apathetic people when its our country that suffers because of it. I understand that you were just making an analogy and trying to define their perspective. I truly loathe the perspective you painted for them and went on the tilt!


Zach

Re: What the Palestinian Authority Has Been Up To
 

Zach


You REALLY need to get off your jingoistic high horse. First of all, I come from a family where I don't have to hesitate to share my views regardless of whether everyone agrees with them or not. I have a grandfather who served in WWII and other relatives who have served in the US Armed forces. None of them have ever threatened to deport me for my views. In fact, many of them are just as (if not more) vocal in their criticism of US foreign policy.


Furthermore, I never ANYWHERE in my post suggested that the Palestinians way of thinking justifies such an attack. I merely was trying to interpret how THEY felt. In the lore of many a country's history, there are bandit types who killed innocents in the name of liberation. These bandits are glorified when in many cases they were guilty of killing civilian members of the oppressor population. Should these types be glorified in 2001? It certainly is questionable.


The D day analogy was made not in terms of liberating Europe, but rather in terms of the massive surprise attack the Germans knew was coming, but could do nothing to stop. That was all my analogy was trying to do. I wasn't comparing the US to the Nazis or anything like that. Nor was I comparing the heroism of the people in the boats off the coast of Normandy to that of the idiots commandeering a civilian passenger plane and ramming it into the WTC.


I would appreciate it if in the future any attacks on my posts stick to their content, and not turn into personal attacks on me. Thank you.

I didn\'t read this before posting my response(n/t) *NM*
 

Re: Boris, Lenny, John Ho Posts
 

John Ho, Can you say Berkeley liberal ?


My god get real man, just because you met some real nice Arabs at school, they should be nice and happy since they are in America. John, most Arabs i have met have been very warm and nice people, but i am sure High Desert Man is referring to the radical idiots of which there are a lot of that hate America.


I for one will be celebrating when we blow the shit out of these freaks and i will have much sorrow for all the good Arabs who will suffer, a price must be paid. For me it can't happen too soon.


Just my thoughts,

Regulator

Disinformation?
 

The Drudge report that you refer to claims, citing anonymous "Palestinian sources," that the PA is intimidating broadcast journalists from filming celebrations of the attacks. It points out that the new journalists have denied the allegation. One would think that if anyone had an interest in promoting this story, if it were true, it would be the journalists who have been muzzled.


The palestinians, in the meantime, contend that they are being targeted by a disinformation campaign: "Israeli radio on Wednesday quoted an alleged Islamic leader in Italy as praising Osama Bin Laden and saying that candies were being given out in mosques throughout Europe in celebration of the tragic plane-crashes into the World Trade Center in New York. However, when Islamic groups in Europe examined the veracity of reports to that effect, they found out that the figure in question was actually nonexistent nor the organization he allegedly headed. . . . Islamic groups have also warned that Mossad agents were posing as ‘Muslim leaders' and making statements which would harm Muslims, like praising the terrorist acts in the US." www.palestineinfo.com


It makes you wonder, at the least, who Drudge's sources are.


I'm not sure what your complaint with the PA really is. They condemned the attacks, and are discouraging the celebrations. Even Drudge points out that the PA has donated blood to the WTC victims. I take it you would prefer otherwise, so that the country and the attack victims see the tragedy celebrated on every screen more often. Isn't this just another example of phony patriot hate-mongering?

Re: Disinformation?
 

I think the article has been updated, but you should read it more carefully before throwing around accusations of "phony patriot hate-mongering." The journalists have an interest in appearing like they have not been prevented from doing their job. They said "most" celebrations have been covered. That is a loaded statement the offered in their defense. Also, the guy who spoke on the radio said celebrations would harm the Palestinian interest. Now, this may be an incomplete or inaccurate quotation. But if it is accurate it does not speak well of the man saying it. How about don't celebrate because it is disgusting. But maybe he said that too.


I am not familiar with the other portions of this alleged disinformation campaign. I think most people are able to focus their thoughts and feelings about this attack and various groups involved without spiraling into some general racist hysteria. Some clearly are not able to do so.


As far as questioning sources, it doesn't look like any identified source said Mossad agents were posing as islamic leaders. This seems farfetched, but I suppose it is possible.


My complaint with the Palestinian Authority is that I don't think they are capable of governing the Palestinian people and the various groups like Fatah in a coherent enough way to make the peace process meaningful. I thought that before the recent events, but the celebrations highlight this. That is what I was saying when you compare what Arafat is publicly saying to what is going on. It is also why I said in the future the Secretary of State should not run after a terrorist turned leader like Arafat and beg him to come to the table. That kind of kowtowing has sure gained us a lot of favor among the Palestinians, eh? Say what you want about Israel, but in the peace process they have a government that is organized enough to pull out of settlements and abide by a cease-fire. So do other countries in the region that support the Palestinians. But the Palestinians don't.