Re: Never bet the flop?
 

What advice would you give instead? Where is a good place for a novice to start?

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

The sit and go FAQ has a lot of good information and I think Aleo Magus' strategy is a good starting point. I made my post because reading the advice I was shocked at it and it could really lead someone down the wrong path.

A few thoughts on sit and gos:

1. Away from the money you need to play +ev poker (easier said then done). Plus ev poker is determined by many things largely the way you play your cards in reaction to the range of cards your opponents had. As an example, TPTK is a strong hand if people are calling you with middle pairs and worse. In traditional no limit play you don't want to go bust on TPTK but you have to realize the shallower the money the more it plays like its own animal as opposed to a deep money ring game or the early stages of a multi.

2. As for basic advice, you want to be the aggressor not the caller. If you think your hand is good you need to bet at the pot to protect it. Nobody is ever 99% sure their hand is good unless you hold AA. Heck if you hold KK you are not 99% sure your hand is good mathematically. My general thought is you want to be aggressive without risking too much of your stack without premium hands if at all possible. When I was less experienced I slow played and check called much too much.

3. Playing weak aces and any two suited after limpers early is very questionable advice if you are not a strong post flop player (especially weak aces). Just muck a hand like A-7o after a few limpers (or basically at any other time early in the tourney). A hand like 6-2s might be profitable to play in round 1 if you are a good post flop player but is a very tough hand to play if you are not. You should muck that as well.

I also feel like folding equity which is an important part of nl play was excluded from his thoughts.

I didn't go point by point through the things I thought were incorrect but I hope that gives a start.

I guess the main problem I have with advice like he gave is that there is no magic way to accumulate chips in he, especially in a setting like a sit and go. There are very few situations that are 80-20 or better, most of the time your edge will be in the range of 55-45 to 70-30. I always see people advocating not taking decent edges and wonder when do you get your chips then?

Finally, letting others draw free to beat you is a sure way not to be a winning player imo.

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

Poboys,

thx for the clarifications.

It sounds like its ok (not great) advice for newbies that don't know better -- as a starting point until their judgement improves.

It's still bad advice but nothing wrong with initial guidance.

Like I told my brother when he started. "play really really tight" "no even tighter" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

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Betting TPTK on the flop is the fastest way to losing a big chunk of chips and you will almost never get action unless you're beat.


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Can you say "weak tight" can you say "monsters under the bed"?

Does position enter into this at all?

This is quite possibly the worst piece of poker advice I have ever read.

If you're betting TPTK/TPGK, it's generally exactly because YOU DON'T WANT ACTION! You want to take the pot down right there. If you do get some calls, that's okay too because in the long run you're making money from calling stations chasing without odds.

For example, you have AhTh, 6 other players see the flop, flop is Ts6s3d.

You're going to check this through?

Do you enjoy loosing?

You check this through, and instead of winning the pot right now, you stand loose it when a K, Q, J or any spade comes. Or someone with low pair gets their second pair. Or the board pairs to give someone trips. Or someone completes their gutshot straight draw. If you bet it, sure you may still get rivered by a calling station but you will at least thin the field enough to give yourself a fighting chance. And all those times the turn and river come rags, rags, you're even further ahead.

Which isn't to say go crazy in this situation. Depending on the table (and the blinds), a min-bet (ugh) may be enough to take it down if you're scared. Usually a half-pot bet is good enough and pot-sized virtually always is and you certainly never want to overbet in this situation unless you have a very good reason to do so (ie: you want a call or stacks are big enough (ie MTT) that a half-pot or pot-sized bet is not significant enough to disuade calls) because it implys weakness and may entice aggressives to try a raise-steal.

Yes, there will be times where you will make a half-pot bet and be re-raised or check-raised big or all-in. And 9 times out of 10 when this happens you need to fold, fold, fold. Too bad, so sad, however all the times you win the pot outright here more than compensates for this occaisional loss.

If you do get called here, then THAT'S when you need to slow down and reassess since depending on your oppenents you may be looking at anything from ace-high to a slow-played set. However, to flat out say "Never bet the flop with TPTK is simply horrible".

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

i believe this to be seriously bad advice.

you think that you're only going to get action from a hand that beats your tptk? what about the dolts who chase 2 outters with low pp, you want to give them a free card that could devastate your hand?

i prefer to do most of my gambling ON the flop as opposed to later. if i'm ahead, i want to stay that way and i'm not going to simply check and give a card that could fill a draw or hit a pocket pair.

i really don't understand this advice.

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

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5. You see a free flop from the big blind with QT...the flop comes Q93 and you check because you don't like the kicker. It checks around. Now a harmless looking 6 falls. You bet out and someone in late position raises you (or calls, this is debatable depending on situation). You can't call. There's no way. So, you have to give it up without taking it to showdown. Or, you take it to showdown only to find you were dominated from the start and suckered into betting a second-best hand. That's why checking through AQ on the flop could be more profitable. A flop bet almost certainly scares everyone off. A flop check and turn raise pushes the curiosity button and makes for bigger pots. In most situations, curiosity > risk of free card.




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i think i've said it before, but with 40,000 players on party alone at times, you simply can't get to play with everyone so you must operate on playing trends.

and LIMPING, ace queen is possible, but they would never check a queen high flop in a multiway pot after limping.

well i don't mean never, but it's a play that i've never seen online.

i really wouldn't bother reading the advice of this writer....get yourself hold'em for advanced players by sklansky or tournament poker for a pro.

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

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Poboys,

thx for the clarifications.
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It sounds like its ok (not great) advice for newbies that don't know better -- as a starting point until their judgement improves.


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True, at least it helps you to avoid getting into trouble.

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It's still bad advice but nothing wrong with initial guidance.


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This is an interresting point--something I try to evaluate when reading other posts. I am not sure if I can argue if it's good or bad advice, but nerd contends that it's profitable advice, fwiw.

Again, I don't follow this strategy blindly, but I think that there are some situations where I find his advice works (right position, player types, blind structure). And many situations where it doesn't.

Re: Never bet the flop?
 

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That's why checking through AQ on the flop could be more profitable. A flop bet almost certainly scares everyone off. A flop check and turn raise pushes the curiosity button and makes for bigger pots. In most situations, curiosity > risk of free card.


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This is an interesting strategem (I generally don't slowplay anything less than a decent 2-pair and only when there aren't flush draws available [and of course paired boards are always dangerous]), however I'd like to make a couple comments...

First, with respect "Never bet the flop with TPTK", there's a world of difference between having TPTK with queens and TPTK with say tens or nines - There's a lot better chance of trouble from the turn or river card when you're only holding a medium pair than QQ A-kicker where the only scare cards in the deck a 4 kings. (I realise you're not advocating slowplaying a pair of tens, I just wanted to clarify this).

Second, the number of players still in the hand, their style and your position are also key factors. If it's heads up, then giving free cards is not nearly as dangerous as when there are 6 other players still in the hand. Similarily when a board is uncordinated rags it's a lot less dangerous than when there's some suited paint.

I think the bottom line to my point is "Don't slowplay vulnerable hands". You want to win right away or punish drawing hands for chasing.

The definition of a "vulnerable hand" is going to vary with the specifics of circumstance.