Heres another point to consider.....

[Syntax]

I would say most of us that play the low limit games do so for a two reasons: a smaller bankroll and a student of the game. We can get a lot of experience with a lower bankroll and make a large enough profit and have enough fun to make it all worth while. I would also suspect that most are planning to gradually step up as they get better. Getting better is the key concept here. Youre not going to get any better playing against really weak opponents.

So lets just assume for a minute that the players at UB and Stars really are much tougher then at Party. By playing the same limits, you would earn a little more at Party against the little fish but youre game would not improve at all. No matter what books you read or concepts you learn, you cant apply these to super fishes who don't know what they are doing. Effectively, you would be preventing yourself from getting the skills to move up to a higher limit where the profit will be even more.

If you played against the tougher opponents, your profits would be less, but your game would definitely improve. If the players were so much better as people suggest, and you could learn to beat the Stars 1/2 LHE game, you would be able to jump up one or two levels at the fishy site (Party).

So basically what I am saying is, by playing Stars or UB (if they really were that much tougher) you have the additional incentive of learning to beat the higher limit games at Party at a much lower cost.

... and keep this in mind, if you choose to just beat up on the super fish and not become a better player, who do you think are going to become the new fish when this wave of fish dissapear? Hint: It wont be the players that moved up

[MS Sunshine]

Syntax, I don't know what your deal is. The pro-Phil's DVD review and the pro-UB and Stars, while at the same time heavy anti-Party posts. Don't get me wrong, Party has lots wrong with it, but is still the easiest place to play. It's not even close. I play Party and PokerStars every day. Many here do the same, we know that your posts smack of someone with their own agenda. With all due respect to your high number of 2+2 posts, if you just hate Party, then that is fine please continue your posts with my apologies, but if you have a connection to Phil or UB please either announce that relationship or reduce the spamming.

MS Sunshine

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
No matter what books you read or concepts you learn, you cant apply these to super fishes who don't know what they are doing. Effectively, you would be preventing yourself from getting the skills to move up to a higher limit where the profit will be even more.


[/ QUOTE ]

In your case I believe this to be true. Generally for all other players you are spouting gibberish.

Jimbo

[tyfromm]

While I disagree with many of your points from your various threads in the past several days, kudos to you for starting some good discussions. It needs to be discussed.

[sumdumguy]

While I have the utmost of respect for you Jimbo.. I think syntax is on to something. Just ask Annie Duke. Despite all her book knowledge and championship experience, she couldn't pull off an expert move on a superfish... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Syntax]

[ QUOTE ]
The pro-Phil's DVD review

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a dozen of these poker dvd's and these are IMO simply the best by far. Theres nothing else to it. Im hoping sooner or later someone else will admit they bought it too and post thier opinions.

[ QUOTE ]
the pro-UB and Stars, while at the same time heavy anti-Party posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not pro or anti any site. I have just been arguing my point against what the majority thinks to accept as gospel. I do not believe that Party is the softest site by such a large amount and these other sites are barely beatable.

[ QUOTE ]
Party has lots wrong with it, but is still the easiest place to play. It's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. This is the exact myth I was trying to dispell. Honestly, when was the last time you logged serious hours at UB or Stars at the the limits I was talking about. Although you have accepted it to be a fact that Party is easiest by far the others arent even close, in reality it is close.

There shouldn't even be an argument about this. It's easy to see who is right and wrong here. All you have to do is check out the games. The reason it is a debate is because people have accepted it as fact and are resistant to change.

[ QUOTE ]
we know that your posts smack of someone with their own agenda.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know that, you suspect that, and you are speaking for other people. There no grassy knoll, no ulterior motive. I was making a point that goes against popular opinion. If you are an affiliate at those sites and Im hurting your business then Im sorry, and I apologize to all affiliates Im offending.

[ QUOTE ]
but if you have a connection to Phil or UB please either announce that relationship or reduce the spamming

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no relationship with anyone or anything related to poker whatsoever. I live in central florida and I don't even know another person who plays poker. The only way I get to play is online and I do alot of it. These are my opinions, no more, no less. And I have not been spamming Phil by any means. I sincerely ask for you to read the first post I made in the thread called "Update: Phil's Million Dollar System" in the books forum. When youre through, I know you will have changed your mind about "my agenda".

Just becasue this is the zoo, not everyone is a troll, spammer, or conspiracy nut.

[Syntax]

So what you are saying is that I should play the way S&M outline in HPFAP in the $1/2 LHE game at Party?

[thomastem]

Syntax,

I will answer you seriously but first let me point at that on one hand you say tougher games teach you more so go to UB and Stars and then you say Stars and UB aren't really tougher negating your first point.

First it is true that in sports or strategy games you learn more by losing than winning. Ask Chess or backgammon players.

Now the reason Party is the best fish pond is total number of players and tables. The more tables going the smaller the impact 3 table players have on the toughness of the games.

So right now the games may look close but if you were to take the 3 tablers from party and put them on any other site you would see Party's games loosen up greatly and the other sites tighten greatly.

Now if you are beating the games at UB and Stars why in the world would you try and invite a bunch of sharks to your pond? I have a small site that I play at regularly and I purposely NEVER mention it because it's nothing but fish and I rarely see someone that I don't have notes on.

Damned if I tell you where.

[Syntax]

I did mention in my point to "assume those sites were tougher for arguments sake" but I don't think they are. The point was, if you believe there are better players at those sites there is still a great reason to play them, and if you don't think they are then well... but you do have a good point about attracting better players and about the three tablers, but I'm not really worried about, I don't feel like any of these are "my" sites or anything, I just want to play. But more importantly, I want to play good. I expect to play for another 60 years and at much greater stakes then I do now, and my biggest goal right now is to become better, not make an extra dollar per hour.

But I digress and my point was that times are changing but a lot of attitudes around here don't seem to be keeping up with it.

[Alobar]

how about I Stick to playing at party, were I make way more money than I would at stars or UB, AND I study and improve my game. So not only will I make more money than someone who plays at UB or stars, I will still continue to improve and move up limits. So in the end, I have the same skill and a much fatter wallet.....sounds good to me

[Syntax]

study and reading are fine, but it means little untill you the theory into practice. Experience is just as important if not more then book learning. You are not going to get better by playing fish. But yes, you are right, your wallet will get fatter by a BB or two at the .5/1 limit games

[Wayne]

[ QUOTE ]
But yes, you are right, your wallet will get fatter by a BB or two at the .5/1 limit games

[/ QUOTE ]

So which is it Mr Kerry? Does Party have the softest tables or not?

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But yes, you are right, your wallet will get fatter by a BB or two at the .5/1 limit games

[/ QUOTE ]

So which is it Mr Kerry? Does Party have the softest tables or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calm down Mr. Bush Jr. there is no oil here.

[MS Sunshine]

"Just becasue this is the zoo, not everyone is a troll, spammer, or conspiracy nut."

No, but that's the way to bet given no other data.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time or promote Party, I'm an a non-practicing affiliate with several forum known issues with Party.

You're right I don't know much about UB's games at the moment since I stopped playing there awhile ago due to poor games. If a respected 2+2 poster said that the games had suddenly changed I would most likely take UB up on one of their bonus offers they send me.

First, all modesty aside, I excell at game selection. I never look at pot averages. I look at the games. Every one in the sections that I play. I play 30K+ hands a month between Party and PokerStars. You're premise that the quality of the games is close is at best self-delusional. Those here that make a living, and many other winning respected posters, playing internet poker would agree with this statement. If you wish to be taken seriously here please stop calling black white and trying to convince those that know the difference otherwise.

I like Phil Hellmuth, but anyone selling poker strategy without taking position into account is on par with someone selling chainsaws to kindergardeners.

Your post about beginners, and students of the games, playing in tougher games to improve the quality of their game has merit and would make a good thread here. I would completely disagree with it, but the debate would have value.

MS Sunshine

[Alobar]

If experience was more important than book learning all the old guys at the B&M I play at who have been playing poker since before God invented dirt, wouldn't suck as bad as they do.

I'd stake the player with a 1000 hours of book learning and 0 hands played over the player with 1000 hours of playing time and zero book learning hands down.

[Syntax]

Thanks for a post with some thought out content. You are absolutely right about game selection. This is one factor I mostly choose to ignore. I don't play poker for a living. By and far, I play for sport. If I think a game is tough, I don't mind, I'll still play and try to beat it. I could play tougher opponents at higher limits, but money becomes an issue there.

I do this for a solid reason though. I have a lot of interest in tournament poker. You don't get a choice of who you play in tourneys and I am developing a game where I feel confident no matter who is at my table.

Why do you play at PokerStars at all? I assume since the games are "so much easier" you make more at Party then at Stars. Is this a big differnce, or with good game selection do you find that theres not much of a differnce? Stars is another site that doesnt kick back much the players so there is no overlay there. Im just curious. Thanks.

[Syntax]

[ QUOTE ]
If experience was more important than book learning all the old guys at the B&M I play at who have been playing poker since before God invented dirt, wouldn't suck as bad as they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres a funny quote from Tom McEvoy about this:

"these guys that play horrible and say that have 40 years experience really have 1 year experience 40x over becasue they never leared to think"

In that same DVD, Phil Ivey and Dan Negreanu say they learned how to beat poker games before they ever started reading books.

Im not arguing about the value of books, I'd be posting on RGP if I didnt think they were the single most responsible thing for my success in poker. I just realize that book knowlege is just ideas untill you get experience.

[Syntax]

A couple other things MS. If youre earning a living playing poker, then I doubt youre playing the .5/1 up to 2/4 games I've been talking about. Im not calling black white, Im just calling it the way I see it. It's not self delusional. I don't know about the higher limit games but I would suspect they would be better at Party given the sheer dominating volume of players. My argument is about the lower limit games.

Also, being a pro, I doubt you would learn anything new from Phil's DVD's, but I honestly think you would find them interesting. There a lot of stuff he goes over and I think all serious players will like it. Im not a shill, I just want to hear someone elses opinion about them.

[daveymck]

Syntax you have sparked debate but are not happy when people disagree with you.

You as you say dont play often and play more for fun, therefore to be honest I dont see how you can come on here and tell people that they should not be playing at Party.

There are some people multiplaying 1/2 2/4 etc as a second income, some to build experience and bankroll to move up to the next level, people are playing 20-40hrs a week online and you come on and tell them they are wrong.

People have explained that other companies give ex customers benefits to get them back, people have said they think Party sucks but they play there for a reason and the rason is to make money.

You have put your opinion forward in a number of similar threads, get the bee out of your bonnett and let the discussions die instead of adding additional threads to the same old issue.

You will be doing a is party rigged thread next and the idiots like Gabbyy (who I notice has gone stupid the last week or so again) will line up to back you, but the experts on here those playing for a living (even at low limits) many hours a week will still play on Party.

[kdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd stake the player with a 1000 hours of book learning and 0 hands played over the player with 1000 hours of playing time and zero book learning hands down.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as I get to pick the experienced non-reader I'll take that bet for as much as you can stand.

Books are fine, they can accelerate your learning curve but there is not a damn thing in any of them that an intelligent, thinking player cannot learn from experience. And there are plenty of readers who cannot put the book learning into practice.