Can I call this on the flop?

[Riposte]

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero (poster) checks, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

River: (7.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 7.50 BB, won by SB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to SB.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins 8.50 BB. </font>

[Greg J]

I dont think you should EVER post unless you are in the CO position or the big blind (preferably the CO).

Fold looks good to me. But what do i know?

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
But what do i know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Enough to fold this here.

-Jaran

[afk]

Good fold.

Also, I generally don't like posting anywhere out of the cutoff.

[SteveY]

I don't get why the cutoff is a better place to post. Can anyone enlighten me?

[nothumb]

Because you're in good position and don't mind paying for a hand so much. Why post from early position when the range of hands you'd be happy to play from there is so small? In the CO you're more likely to catch a playable hand and you've got some position in case the BB special comes through.

Can you call this on the flop? Only if you're playing with Defense Department money. 8 to 1 on a gutshot isn't bad if it's to the nuts and there are a lot of loose callers, but you're drawing to a one card gutshot that's quite likely got a bigger draw against it. Fold fold fold that crap crap crap.

NT

[SteveY]

I understand that posting in CO is better than posting anywhere else outside the blinds, since in EP/MP you're more picky about your starting hands.

But what I usually do is wait for the big blind to post. I almost never post at the cutoff. And GregJ said he actually preferred to post in the CO which kind of baffles me. Is there really a difference? I mean why would you want to put your money in to get a random hand when you don't have to post at all?

[Greg J]

In my opinion, there are times when getting into a game earlier pays for itself in the long run. This is particularly true on the micro limit tables, esp the nano limits I play.

on the other hand...

But you bring up an interesting point. Maybe I am acting suboptimally by paying half a BB I don't have to (actually less b/c of the occasional decent hand or good flop). While I'm confident this is not a huge leak in my game, perhaps it's a small one I should plug. Thanks for the input.

Thoughts? Pros and cons of the BB vs the CO?

[zuvis]

I post in the BB or the CO.

From CO you pay 1 SB to see 6 hands.
From BB you pay 1 SB + .5 SB to see 10 hands.
etc...

At least that's how I've always looked at it.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
From CO you pay 1 SB to see 6 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its a 10 handed table you see 7 hands I believe making it a smart play.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]

From CO you pay 1 SB to see 6 hands.
From BB you pay 1 SB + .5 SB to see 10 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Or more specifically, in the CO you pay one SB to see 6 hands (assuming a full table) and in the BB you pay one SB to see 6.67 hands (assuming the same full table).

However, hands are not just hands. You also have to take into consideration position. This small difference (6 vs 6.67) is probably compensated for by the average position you get from playing the CO.

Assuming positional advantage where SB=1 and Button=10, the average advantage of playing the CO is 6, and for the BB is 5.5.

Looks like this is toss up.

[blackaces13]

You can't call mainly because of the presence of the 10...do you see why?

Man, I love saying do you see why. I feel like Sklansky!

[tech]

Post UTG and then raise any two cards. Does wonders for your table image. GAMB0000000000000LLL!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Cosimo]

Depends on the table size.

At a 10-person table, posting in the CO gives you:
* you see 7 hands for 1 SB
* you have position over posting in EP or MP
* you'll get your BB special with position

From the BB:
* 10 hands for 1.5 SB, or 6.67 hands / SB
* you'll get the button in a couple hands

I'll do either one, they're so close. I won't post anywhere else. At micro limits, I might post at CO at a 9-person table cuz it's not that much of an edge, it's cheap (25c), and I don't plan on carrying the habit to 15-30 shorthanded games. It might hurt my winrate a tiny smidgeon, but so what? I'm not playing microlimits to pay the rent.

[cab4656]

Hi all. First post here. I love reading these forums and have learned a lot, just from reading.

Hypothetical question about this hand: If he held 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead, would it be worth it to call one small bet on the flop? He'd have a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. This is a situation I seem to find myself in now and then, and often I end up chasing it.

[tech]

I call in that case. Hero *almost* has the odds to call anyway. Having a backdoor draw doesn't add much, but IMO it tips the scale here.

[afk]

I probably should be waiting till the blinds everytime to post, but sometimes I'm just not that patient. Maybe I'm giving up a bit by posting in the cutoff, but that's alright - I want to PLAY CARDS AND GAMBOOOOOOL!

[HajiShirazu]

If you are a winning player posting in the CO is more than fine, even MP3 is probably okay, as it is to your advantage to sit at the table and play as many hands as possible.

[Riposte]

Is it because I might not be drawing to the nuts?

[Zetack]

To put the math another way:

If you post in the BB you are going to pay 1.5 small bets to see 10 hands. Thats .15 small bets per hand.

In the Co you are going to pay one small bet to see seven hands (yes seven, not six in a full handed game). Thats a hair over .14 small bets per hand. Plus you have position.

Seems to me that posting there is a no brainer, but I have no problem with people who wait for the BB, since it's not a tremendous advantage.

Also, if I had noted before sitting down that it was a pretty aggressive table with a lot of Pre-flop raising I might not post in the Co, although I don't know if that's the right way to go or not...

Now if you're willing to post in the Co in the nine handed game, then that's the same from a small bet per hand perspective as posting in the Mp3 (Co-1). You see six hands for your small bet or .16666666 small bets per hand. Still not a terrible decision from a financial point of view. Of course your position gets worse in Co-1. I tend to do it if its a juicy game and I want to hurry up and get to it before the thing dries up any.

--Zetack

[Zetack]

to you and do Afk above, as I point out above, its actually cheaper to post in the Co in a ten handed game than it is in the BB. So you don't need any elaborate justifications to do it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

--Zetack

[Zetack]

Hell you can call any thing you want, it's gambling after all.

That said, no you can't call here /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Just dump the damn gutshots unless you have the right pot odds. 8-1 on a 10.75-1 shot isn't it. And if you start thinking implied odds to talk yourself into the call, at least make it a gutshot that uses two of your cards.

There's just nothing at all appealing to me about putting any more coin in that pot.

--Zetack

[blackaces13]

Well you're already not drawing to the nuts which is a good reason to fold anyhow. But more to the point because of the 10 on board you're really only using 1 of your hole cards to make your straight as your 5 doesn't play anymore. This greatly increases the chance that you're drawing to a split pot or even possibly drawing dead.

Combine this with the fact that the pot is not offering you immediate odds of 10.5 to 1 and its an easy fold.

If the 10 was not there the decision would be much closer IMO but would still be a fold. Basically, don't pay to draw to gutters where only one of your hole cards is used.