SNG: Nut Flush Draw, Shortstacked, All-in?

[Desdia72]

you're holding A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif with two /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs on the flop with 900 in chips. blinds 100/200. would you push all-in?

[La Brujita]

How many players weeing the flop, how many players left in tournament, stack sizes etc. absolutely crucial.

Without knowing that I would probably push if I thought my A gave me three good outs but hard to answer in a vacuum.

[citanul]

How many players left, what are the stacks of the other players (in hand and not), what was the action preflop, and what is your position, how many people in the pot, and how many chips in the pot?

Most of the time, if we're down to 4 or 5 players and there's 100/200 blinds, if I'm playing A9s, It's for an all in preflop. It's just not that great of a hand, and I'll be happy to take it down preflop.

Given none (and basically, without all) of the stuff asked in the first paragraph, I don't think anyone's going to be able to answer your question well.

If there's 6-7 people in the pot, and you think you either a) have a good chance to take the pot or
b) have a good chance that several players call your all in

It's a good all in I think

I don't think you're going to have 6-7 players in a pot at this point though. So er, yeah, we need that other info really.

citanul

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
How many players weeing the flop, how many players left in tournament, stack sizes etc. absolutely crucial.

Without knowing that I would probably push if I thought my A gave me three good outs but hard to answer in a vacuum.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 players left, 3 on the flop, 2 in the blinds and one limper. one larger stack and a medium.

[durron597]

How many players are left? What are their blind sizes? Can you give all the information about the hand? How much is in the pot already?

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
How many players are left? What are their blind sizes? Can you give all the information about the hand? How much is in the pot already?

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^see above, i already answered.

[mackthefork]

600 in pot, 900 left, you are the short stack, there is a good chance you will pick it up if you push, if you are called and your ace is good you are getting correct odds from your caller anyways, so yeah push is good imo.

Regards ML

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
600 in pot, 900 left, you are the short stack, there is a good chance you will pick it up if you push, if you are called and your ace is good you are getting correct odds from your caller anyways, so yeah push is good imo.

Regards ML

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my thinking. i pushed and did'nt get it. one of the /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs on the flop happened to be a 4 and the guy who called had pockets 4s for trips. if the cards were dealt the same to the end with another diamond, i still would have lost because 6s got paired on the river giving him 4s over 6s full.

[PrayingMantis]

After reading all your posts in this thread, I still can't figure what was the exact situation. If you really want people to give you relevant advice, you should simply give, in your original post, ALL the information you can about the specific situation, including stacks, position, read, the action up to the point where you had to make your decision, etc, etc. There are many examples for this in this forum.

It will be much more efficient.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all your posts in this thread, I still can't figure what was the exact situation. If you really want people to give you relevant advice, you should simply give, in your original post, ALL the information you can about the specific situation, including stacks, position, read, the action up to the point where you had to make your decision, etc, etc. There are many examples for this in this forum.

It will be much more efficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently, you have not read all the posts. i've already posted how many people were left, who was in on the flop, who was in the blinds, the stack sizes, and a limper. i was the shortstack.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
apparently, you have not read all the posts. i've already posted how many people were left, who was in on the flop, who was in the blinds, the stack sizes, and a limper. i was the shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to make money playing SNGs? I guess so. So, in order to do that, you have to understand that every decision should be made after taking in consideration every possible aspect of the specific situation. That's why it's such a complicated game. It looks simple, but it is extremely complicated. Even SNGs, which some say are the "easiest" version of poker, are still highly complicated.

So, what is the stack size of each of the other players? What is your read of any of them? of the table dynamics? What is your position? What was the action, in this very hand, UNTIL you had to make you decision here?

These are VERY basic and simple questions. In order to make the best possible move, you have to think about them. It seems like you are refusing to give all the information, and do so only after people are asking you, and even then you don't give it all. Do you see what I mean?

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
apparently, you have not read all the posts. i've already posted how many people were left, who was in on the flop, who was in the blinds, the stack sizes, and a limper. i was the shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to make money playing SNGs? I guess so. So, in order to do that, you have to understand that every decision should be made after taking in consideration every possible aspect of the specific situation. That's why it's such a complicated game. It looks simple, but it is extremely complicated. Even SNGs, which some say are the "easiest" version of poker, are still highly complicated.

So, what is the stack size of each of the other players? What is your read of any of them? of the table dynamics? What is your position? What was the action, in this very hand, UNTIL you had to make you decision here?

These are VERY basic and simple questions. In order to make the best possible move, you have to think about them. It seems like you are refusing to give all the information, and do so only after people are asking you, and even then you don't give it all. Do you see what I mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

i already make money playing SNGs. one player was in the BB with about 1400 left in chips, one larger stack with over 3000 was in the SB, i limped with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif as the small stack. i might have either said earlier that somebody else limped, i'm not sure, but i also did. blinds were 100/200 with three players on the flop, 600 in an unraised pot, two /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs on the flop, i'm the shortstack with 900. the big stack is a good player who knows me from another Poker Forum and knows i'm a winning player at the $5 level. the other stack is a player who called my all-ins as a shortstack with crap hands and doubled me up 3 times (was down to 185 in chips at one point) and who also got lucky with A 10 against my K K and flopped two pair. he does'nt strike me as a good or bad player either way. i figure i have the best of it with the nut flush draw. hope this is better.

[Jason Strasser]

No offense, I would've had an easier time figuring out what was going on here if you had just copied and pasted the hand history. Your post is all over the place. Let me see:

You have 1100 before the hand and decide to open limp with A9s. Well there's a mistake. You didn't say what position you limped from, and I think that determines if you raise or fold this hand. With 1100 and the blinds 100/200, this is all-in or fold for me. I think here, given your unknown position, I'd fold.

The reason you raise or fold here is because:
1) If you raise, the blinds will fold a lot
2) If you call, you give up the chance at stealing the blinds, and you violate the 5/10 rule which says you can make loose calls preflop if it is less than 5% of your stack, and you can't if its greater than 10% of your stack. (In between its the grey area, you aren't even in the grey area).

On the flop, you have an easy push. Most of the times you will win right there. Of course, you did not say if it was checked to you, or IF you had to call the all-in. I'd be much happier pushing than calling an all-in here for obvious reasons... Again, you didn't specify.

The best advice we can give you depends on what you give us to work with. Post the hand, or describe it like many other posts on here. If you are asking a hypothetical question, then ask it in a more clear way. This post was confusing.

Good luck.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense, I would've had an easier time figuring out what was going on here if you had just copied and pasted the hand history. Your post is all over the place. Let me see:

You have 1100 before the hand and decide to open limp with A9s. Well there's a mistake. You didn't say what position you limped from, and I think that determines if you raise or fold this hand. With 1100 and the blinds 100/200, this is all-in or fold for me. I think here, given your unknown position, I'd fold.

The reason you raise or fold here is because:
1) If you raise, the blinds will fold a lot
2) If you call, you give up the chance at stealing the blinds, and you violate the 5/10 rule which says you can make loose calls preflop if it is less than 5% of your stack, and you can't if its greater than 10% of your stack. (In between its the grey area, you aren't even in the grey area).

On the flop, you have an easy push. Most of the times you will win right there. Of course, you did not say if it was checked to you, or IF you had to call the all-in. I'd be much happier pushing than calling an all-in here for obvious reasons... Again, you didn't specify.

The best advice we can give you depends on what you give us to work with. Post the hand, or describe it like many other posts on here. If you are asking a hypothetical question, then ask it in a more clear way. This post was confusing.

Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

i pushed all-in on the flop, first. the bigger stack folded.
the other stack called my all-in. as described earlier, he had a propensity to call my all-ins with weaker hands. in that spot, i don't necessarily see going all-in with A 9 preflop, although my hand was suited; however, it's an option i thought about. the guy had pocket 4s and had called me before with worse. the flop gave him trip 4s, one of which was one of the /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs and a 6 fell on the river. along with a 6 on the flop, that gave him a full 4s over 6s. i would have lost either way. i did'nt need help on the hand, it more had to do with if other players would have made the same move. at that point (in that spot), i felt i made a good push at the pot. i'll work on the better info bit.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
i already make money playing SNGs. one player was in the BB with about 1400 left in chips, one larger stack with over 3000 was in the SB, i limped with A 9 as the small stack. i might have either said earlier that somebody else limped, i'm not sure, but i also did. blinds were 100/200 with three players on the flop, 600 in an unraised pot, two s on the flop, i'm the shortstack with 900. the big stack is a good player who knows me from another Poker Forum and knows i'm a winning player at the $5 level. the other stack is a player who called my all-ins as a shortstack with crap hands and doubled me up 3 times (was down to 185 in chips at one point) and who also got lucky with A 10 against my K K and flopped two pair. he does'nt strike me as a good or bad player either way. i figure i have the best of it with the nut flush draw. hope this is better.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, this is much better, although still a bit vague. It is important to know if you're first to act PF, ie, if it was folded to you, or that you're UTG, or you're acting after a limper. Generally speaking, this is a push/fold PF, with your stack and the high blinds. I don't see much reason to call and see a flop, especially with one limper ahead of you, and probably 2 more on the blinds who will join in. You should make a decision PF. A9s is a good enough hand to push with when short handed, and when you're short stacked, unless you face a raise in-front of you, or a limp by a tricky player, who might slow play a big pair. Pushing on the flop, if it was checked to you, seems rather natural to me, but I would prefer to end it PF, and hope for a weak call by a lower ace, for instance, or simply to take down the blinds, which is great too.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i already make money playing SNGs. one player was in the BB with about 1400 left in chips, one larger stack with over 3000 was in the SB, i limped with A 9 as the small stack. i might have either said earlier that somebody else limped, i'm not sure, but i also did. blinds were 100/200 with three players on the flop, 600 in an unraised pot, two s on the flop, i'm the shortstack with 900. the big stack is a good player who knows me from another Poker Forum and knows i'm a winning player at the $5 level. the other stack is a player who called my all-ins as a shortstack with crap hands and doubled me up 3 times (was down to 185 in chips at one point) and who also got lucky with A 10 against my K K and flopped two pair. he does'nt strike me as a good or bad player either way. i figure i have the best of it with the nut flush draw. hope this is better.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, this is much better, although still a bit vague. It is important to know if you're first to act PF, ie, if it was folded to you, or that you're UTG, or you're acting after a limper. Generally speaking, this is a push/fold PF, with your stack and the high blinds. I don't see much reason to call and see a flop, especially with one limper ahead of you, and probably 2 more on the blinds who will join in. You should make a decision PF. A9s is a good enough hand to push with when short handed, and when you're short stacked, unless you face a raise in-front of you, or a limp by a tricky player, who might slow play a big pair. Pushing on the flop, if it was checked to you, seems rather natural to me, but I would prefer to end it PF, and hope for a weak call by a lower ace, for instance, or simply to take down the blinds, which is great too.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i've had alot of bad experiences with A 9, A 10-type hands pushing all-in PF in these spots. you and Jason both say push or fold PF, i've had other players say a push PF with this hand is not good. i am very unlucky with these type hands all-in PF as a shortstack. although i lost this hand too, this at least, was one of the better shots that i had to win the hand with the two /images/graemlins/diamond.gifs on the flop for the nut flush draw.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i've had alot of bad experiences with A 9, A 10-type hands pushing all-in PF in these spots. you and Jason both say push or fold PF, i've had other players say a push PF with this hand is not good. i am very unlucky with these type hands all-in PF as a shortstack. although i lost this hand too, this at least, was one of the better shots that i had to win the hand with the two s on the flop for the nut flush draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

A9s is not the best hand in the world, however, you are the short stack, with 4 more players, and BB is almost 20% your stack. You MUST make moves in these situations, either to steal blinds, or to try and double-up, otherwise you're going to dwindle down, and your push will have 0 folding equity, which is very bad.

So, say you get A9s 5 handed, with stacks and blinds as you describe, and it's folded to you on the CO (UTG+1). What are you going to do? Limp? what for? to get 2 others to see the flop, probably with some random hands, and that will diminish significantly your chances of winning it? You don't have big enough stack to play reasonably post-flop. You should go for the blinds, or for a weak call. Remember: you hold one of the aces, so there's less chances you'll face another (stronger) ace. And folding A9s in this spot, is too weak-tight.


You don't have time to wait for better hands, if you are short-stackes like that. You must be super aggressive (yet pick your spots well) - that's the main idea when playing a short stack.

[Jason Strasser]

What PM is trying to say, is that if you finally find a topic where he and Jason agree, it must be correct!

(Joke--PM and I agree more than occasionally... However we do disagree once in a blue moon /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, i've had alot of bad experiences with A 9, A 10-type hands pushing all-in PF in these spots. you and Jason both say push or fold PF, i've had other players say a push PF with this hand is not good. i am very unlucky with these type hands all-in PF as a shortstack. although i lost this hand too, this at least, was one of the better shots that i had to win the hand with the two s on the flop for the nut flush draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

A9s is not the best hand in the world, however, you are the short stack, with 4 more players, and BB is almost 20% your stack. You MUST make moves in these situations, either to steal blinds, or to try and double-up, otherwise you're going to dwindle down, and your push will have 0 folding equity, which is very bad.

So, say you get A9s 5 handed, with stacks and blinds as you describe, and it's folded to you on the CO (UTG+1). What are you going to do? Limp? what for? to get 2 others to see the flop, probably with some random hands, and that will diminish significantly your chances of winning it? You don't have big enough stack to play reasonably post-flop. You should go for the blinds, or for a weak call. Remember: you hold one of the aces, so there's less chances you'll face another (stronger) ace. And folding A9s in this spot, is too weak-tight.


You don't have time to wait for better hands, if you are short-stackes like that. You must be super aggressive (yet pick your spots well) - that's the main idea when playing a short stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

"And foldng A9s in this spot, is too weak-tight".


but did'nt you say push or FOLD PF in an earlier reply, if i remember correctly?

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
What PM is trying to say, is that if you finally find a topic where he and Jason agree, it must be correct!

(Joke--PM and I agree more than occasionally... However we do disagree once in a blue moon )
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

True, true. And of course, when we do not agree, it's simply because you're wrong! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(Seriously, I think that I've learned a lot from any discussion we had, whether I agreed with you or not).

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
"And foldng A9s in this spot, is too weak-tight".


but did'nt you say push or FOLD PF in an earlier reply, if i remember correctly?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, "push / fold" is the mode you should be in, regardless of the hand you hold. For example, I might fold A9s in your situation, if there was a raise from UTG, who I know is a very tight player, and has me coverd. If I'm first to act, most chances I push. It also somewhat depends on the texture of the game: for instance, if I believe that 4th stack is playing VERY loose and stupidly, or that the 2 big stacks take shots at each other, I might consider folding a bit more.