KK hand with 2 all-ins

[Ferris Bueller]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed)

MP2 (t1665)
CO (t3350)
Button (t1365)
SB (t1100)
BB (t1680)
UTG (t1145)
Hero (t3195)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, Hero raises to t300, MP2 folds, CO calls t300, Button folds, SB raises to t1100, BB raises to t1680, Hero ???

I make a standard opening raise hoping to pick up the blinds or get one caller or a shorter stack to go all-in. I'm a little concerened when both of the blinds go all-in. Added to the decision I have the CO, who has me covered, left to act after me.

What's your play?

[citanul]

Personally I don't think you can even consider folding.

I guess that that leaves few options:

1) go all in, you have KK, you're only in really bad shape if the guy who has you covered has AA.

2) call, if the CO comes into the hand, then there is future options, otherwise, hey, you have KK!

if the large stack calls, you can:

a) go all in on any flop
b) go all in on any non ace flop
c) some variant on these two that doesn't involve folding KK heads up for no real reason.

Personally, I heavilly heavilly lean toward going all in preflop. There may be a few hands that the CO will call along with if you just call that he otherwise would fold for an all in from you. The pot is already big, I don't htink you need to give him what may wind up as an OK call. If he wants to call your all in, more power to him. Sometimes he's going to have AA, more likely not.

My second favorite option here is to try as hard as I can to entice the big stack to put as many chips as possible in right now. In that line of thinking, I may as my mix it up play call, and then push on any non-ace flop as my default play, or some variant on it. The pot, if the CO calls, is huge, so he could easilly call you with TPTK or other such hands.

Anyway, so I'm big on pushing here, I'd love to see what others think.

citanul

[Dominic]

hmmm....interesting one...assuming you really don't know anything about your opponents, I might actually fold this hand simply because of the size of your stack..you're in gerat position, why risk busting out or crippling yourself if someone with A10 or AK happens to spike an A? Or a lower pocket pair hits his set?

If it was one person, it's an automatic call...and if the players going all-in have been loose, I'd move all-in to force the CO out...don't see how he calls unless he's got AA.

But I'd seriously consider folding this hand...can't believe it, I would. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[patrick dicaprio]

i have faced this situation twice and both times I folded. both times a player showed AA. so i would say fold but i am sure you will get others telling you to push or something.

Pat

[stripsqueez]

auto call i would of thought - if you win this pot you are gauranteed into the money and you get to play bully boy big time, such that first or second are extremely likely

if you lose the pot you are still in good shape

not here for a haircut

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[AtlBrvs4Life]

I'd say this totally depends on how your opponents have been playing. I would not be surprised at all to see someone with AA in this situation. This reminds me of one of the NL Q&As in TPFAP. I'd tell ya the page, but I don't have the book with me. Worth a read though.

[Jurollo]

I push. Chances are the 2 all-ins have AX or a smaller PP. If they both have AX is leaves only 2 more Aces for them to pair on the board giving you a little better odds of winning the hand.

[Ferris Bueller]

Thanks for all the responses. I used up most of my time bank here and finally decided to muck because even though I thought I had the best hand I liked my shot of making the money with the chip position I was in and didn't want to risk my position in a mutlti-way pot. I've never mucked KK pre-flop before.

Who still thinks this is weak?

Not to be results oriented but I did end up winning this SNG. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed)

MP2 (t1665)
CO (t3350)
Button (t1365)
SB (t1100)
BB (t1680)
UTG (t1145)
Hero (t3195)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls t300, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t1100</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t1680</font>, Hero folds, CO calls t1380.

Flop: (t4760) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>

Turn: (t4760) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>

River: (t4760) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: t4760

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Qc 8c (two pair, jacks and eights).
BB shows 7h 7c (two pair, jacks and sevens).
CO shows Jh Ad (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: CO wins t4760. </font>

[esknights]

If you pushed I couldn't see the CO coming along as well. He would have to believe his AJ is dominated.

[2planka]

I'm stuck between call and push. Without a read (blinds are t100, but no read?), I'd tend toward calling but I'm wary of the CO. He only called the 300 raise, so I'd put him on a smaller pair or AK, but then again I'm no pro. Could he be slow playing AA? How does he usually play his big hands?

I'm leaning toward calling here, but if CO pushes behind I push too. With all those chips in the pot it's worth a gamble to me.

I've only been playing SNG's for a year, though, so I could very well be wrong.

[Sam T.]

Sklansky has an example not unlike this in the quiz section of TPFAP. (You're at the WSOP, holding KK. One limper in front, you make a big raise, limper reraises all-in, you...)

He said that while the betting is curious, you are clearly up against AA, and need to fold. (So in this case you get an A+! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I guess this is the difference between a Pokerstars SnG and the WSOP!

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky has an example not unlike this in the quiz section of TPFAP. (You're at the WSOP, holding KK. One limper in front, you make a big raise, limper reraises all-in, you...)

He said that while the betting is curious, you are clearly up against AA, and need to fold. (So in this case you get an A+! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I guess this is the difference between a Pokerstars SnG and the WSOP!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and this is one place where Sklansky's favorite quip of "it is not a matter of opinion" is a bunch of rubbish.

eastbay

[SayGN]

I like the fold. Not sure if I could have folded it but I think it was a smart decision, however unfortunte it is to have to make. You are still in good position if you fold and taking the risk of crippling yourself just outside of the money is not smart. There are other hands that you can play and see the flop with that will turn into a sure thing and you'll win your money anyways. You went on to win the tournament, congradulations. Just goes to show you how winning players sometimes have to lay down what could be the winning hand (assuming the chip leader folded after your push). So, good job, smart fold...well played

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
There are other hands that you can play and see the flop with that will turn into a sure thing and you'll win your money anyways. You went on to win the tournament, congradulations. Just goes to show you how winning players sometimes have to lay down what could be the winning hand (assuming the chip leader folded after your push). So, good job, smart fold...well played

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate on what hands I can play to get this "sure thing," it sounds great.

Incidentally, what happens if two players who know how to wait for a "sure thing" sit down at the same table, or play heads up?

As for the original poster, you can see from the results the kind of trash people tend to turn over in these situations. Will you win more tournaments by calling with a monster like KK in this situation, or by folding and waiting for a "sure thing" that may never arrive? My judgment would be the former.

[BradleyT]

Well said.

If you can't call with the second best starting hand in a moderately tricky pre-flop situation you should be playing scrabble instead of poker.

[nothumb]

I push here and clear out the CO.

I had a hand like this on the first hand of a Party SNG recently... raised it to 125 UTG, somebody pushed from MP, Button called, I called. MP player shows KQs, Button had jacks and my kings held up. Cruised from there.

NT

[2planka]

Suppose you had to make the decision at the flop, how would you have played it (with a J high two suited board)? Yes he caught one of his 5 outs on the river, but I still think pushing/calling preflop in a typical stars SNG is the right play. So yes, I think the laydown was not the best play.

[Ferris Bueller]

KilgoreTrout,

Sorry I have no read only about 30 hands in and have never seen any of these players. Neither of the blinds had been all-in yet and found it curious that they both pushed with when they were not too short stacked so I put them on big hands at the time. But looking over the hand just now it looks like the SB was trying to either pick up the t750 in the pot for free or more than double up if he got lucky because he couldn't think he had the best hand.

All,

The consensus seems to be I made a bad fold. When I saw the hands they pushed with I obviously had doubts that I made the right decision. I was a little shocked by the hands the BB and CO called with. I would never call an all-in at that blind level with 77 or AJo unless I was getting at least 2-1 on my money. I would push with them first in if I had to double up but not call with them. Am I too tight?

The bottom line for me; is this a +EV situation to push here? Maybe it is worth getting involved because I have ~50% chance of being in the dominant stack making it much more likely too reach 1st place which is always the goal.

[Ferris Bueller]

Jurollo,

&gt;&gt;Chances are the 2 all-ins have AX or a smaller PP...

I agree with your thoughts here I am an in ideal postition against the usual push hands. Thanks.

[Ferris Bueller]

fnurt,

[ QUOTE ]
Will you win more tournaments by calling with a monster like KK in this situation...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point. My decision at the time was mostly based on not wanting to bust out. I missed the fact that my goal was to get a hold of all the chips not just being happy to have 3K chips.

[Ferris Bueller]

KilgoreTrout,

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you had to make the decision at the flop, how would you have played it (with a J high two suited board)? Yes he caught one of his 5 outs on the river, but I still think pushing/calling preflop in a typical stars SNG is the right play. So yes, I think the laydown was not the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not sure what you are saying here. If I saw this flop with Kings and two pushes in front of me I would even less likely to call than in the pre-flop case if I wasn't pot commited.

[gergery]

I think you either push or fold. With CO just calling your open raise he can’t have AA. Then it’s a question of what the others have, and that’s just dependent on your table read and how they’ve been playing. At the low level SNGs, I’ve seen crazy [censored], so could put them on a lot of hands.

With a big stack, I probably raise them all-in to get CO to fold. But I don’t think folding is a terrible option, as you’re likely to get CO in there and 3 people in for all their money gives you a great shot at the money.

-g