T9s UTG+1, 5/10

[BigEndian]

I have been seeing about 6% of the flops after about 100 hands when this hand came up. Important opponent is loose and moderately aggressive according to their numbers, but that's only after about 30 hands - so not the best indicator for obvious reasons.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: BigEndian is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian raises</font>, MP1 <font color="purple">(Loose, Moderate-aggresive)</font> calls, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls,

Flop: (6.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Loose, Moderate-aggresive raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">BigEndian 3-bets</font>, Loose, Moderate-aggresive calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BigEndian bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Loose, Moderate-aggresive raises</font>, BigEndian calls.

River: (10.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BigEndian checks, <font color="CC3333">Loose, Moderate-aggresive bets</font>, BigEndian calls.

Final Pot: 12.20 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.20 BB, between BigEndian and Loose, Moderate-aggresive.</font>

- Jim

[Aces McGee]

Was this a particularly tight table?

If not, then I prefer to limp UTG+1 with T9s.

-McGee

[BigEndian]

It was fairly typical 5/10. Half the table filled with MTers and a couple loose people bleeding chips in a way that you want to call them on the phone and beg them to seek help.

The two times I had open-raised previously, I took the blinds. There's at least one 2+2er at the table that doesn't know me as a poster to these boards, but has been getting out of my way routinely when I see him at a table. I'm starting to ramble... The table was tight enough that if I limped I would likely get raised and only have 2-3 people to the flop including myself - not a place to limp with T9s imo.

- Jim

[Guido]

Why don't you fold preflop?

[MarkD]

I like limping with T9s in the Party 5/10 games UTG and EP. I raise occasionally for some of the reasons you site. I think limping is better in general.

Having raised I like the way you played it. I like the flop 3-bet as more and more often people when the pre-flop raiser bets a flop like this some schmuck is raising him because they assume it missed you. It did miss you but you have plenty of outs that you can 3-bet his ass and bet the turn. I'd say 15-30% of the time that I make this 3-bet my opponents have been folding right on the flop.

It's just like the typical yahoo's that have started to bet into the pre-flop raiser on boards like this. It's nearly an epidemic on party.

[BigEndian]

Typically, I would have folded this PF. This isn't SOP for T9s in EP by my playbook.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I'm curious if limping with this hand is a routine part of your playbook at the 5/10. Especially if you can expect to be popped by a MTer in LP. How successful do you feel you have been with this hand in that situation?

- Jim

[MarkD]

Yah, pretty standard limp unless the table has been playing slightly tighter or more agressive than usual. Even in the 5/10 games limping begets limping if the original limper is UTG or UTG+1. I think it helps if the limp comes UTG rather than UTG+1.

If the game is playing really tight then I raise this hand.

I don't know how sucessful I've been to be honest. It might be -ve EV but I like it as a play balance play. I'm not at home so can't look at PT. It is interesting to note that I'm currently losing money UTG and UTG+1, but my sample isn't too large so it may not have converged yet (it is close to break even but still -ve).

EDIT: I should note that I don't consider folding to be a mistake, it's just that I like to play and I don't consider this hand to be horrible. I think 9Ts and JTs in these games up front are close to neutral and what you do with them doesn't matter much but again I'm losing money upfront so maybe I'm overplaying them and Axs.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
The table was tight enough that if I limped I would likely get raised and only have 2-3 people to the flop including myself - not a place to limp with T9s imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then fold.

[BigEndian]

I'm not going to get into another 100 post dialog about whether I should have folded this hand PF. I think, by far, it's the least interesting part of this hand.

I do wonder sometimes if people work so hard on their PF play that they become too absorbed on this very small part of the overall game.

On later streets, this guy represents nothing short of a solid made hand. The raise on the flop means nothing, but when he calls my 3-bet on the flop and then pops the turn I need to give hard thought to whether I can call on the end unimproved getting 11-1.

That's much more interesting than whether raising T9s on occaision first in UTG+1 is a bad play.

- Jim

[Dominic]

You have to call...10 times out of 11 you figure to win with your pair of 10s...rather make a mistake for one big bet than make one that costs you the whole pot.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I do wonder sometimes if people work so hard on their PF play that they become too absorbed on this very small part of the overall game.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I don't agree that pre-flop play is a small part of the overall game. Because in loose games you do a lot of raising and limping pre-flop, followed by much folding on the flop, I'd call this a fairly major part. And frankly, when playing against weak opposition (which may not be what you routinely play against) most of my advantage comes in pre-flop play.

But you said you didn't want to debate the merits of raising 9Ts in EP.

I don't like the three-bet on the flop. Are you going to continue this bluff if you don't improve, betting the river with T-high?

On the turn, I like the bet. I hate his raise, however, though if he's overagressive it could mean a hand like A8. But it's a bit much for me to put him on that.

On the river, check-call is fine though you wont like what you see 9 times out of 10. As luck would have it, those are about the odds you're getting...

[Guido]

It's true that your postflop play is very very important. It's also the most diffecult part of the game and it's only logical that you want our opinion about that part. But what I don't understand is why you still make strange preflop decisions. When the table is tight-passive you can raise T9s in EP. When it's loose-passive you can limp in EP. When it's tight-aggressive you fold in EP. You first have to make good preflop decisions. Making a mess of it preflop and trying to clean that up postflop isn't the way to go IMO. First try to make your best preflop decision considering your cards, the table conditions, your position ect. It's one of the easier parts of the game. I agree this isn't a big mistake if any, but this isn't the only hand where your PF decision strange or wrong. After that your concern is how to maximize your profit and/or minimize your loss. I asume that you are crushing the 5/10 games and are bored... Try to move up, maybe that helps.

On the flop his raise might mean nothing but you only have a draw. So the only way you can win this hand is when you can bluff him of his hand and that's going to be hard against a loose-aggressive opponent. That's why I wouln't 3-bet because it has no meaning other that keeping the initiative. I would call and see what the turn brings. In this case it improved your hand so I would bet out or go for a check-raise. You bet out and he raises you again. On the river I call down.

Hope that this helps...

Guido

[BigEndian]

And frankly, when playing against weak opposition (which may not be what you routinely play against) most of my advantage comes in pre-flop play.

I can't believe you really think this ElSapo. And there's a lot of leeway in saying "weak opposition".

I would bet the turn unimproved and check-fold the river unimproved if that T hadn't come on the Turn.

Since the T did come, this didn't look to me like a place where one should bet the river, but I've been missing those opportunities a lot recently. I helf expected someone to mention it and I would want to know why.

His hand turned out to be a horribly over-played A8. This hand caused me to take note of him in this manner over and above his numbers, which can be very deceiving in such a small sample set.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

It would probably have been worth saying that I wouldn't get 3-bet on this table without a legitimate holding with the raise coming from where it did (UTG+1). I would also not be surprised to only be called by players holding AQ. So the table isn't overly aggressive as a whole and I really am not fearing a 3-bet happening the majority of the time.

That's an excellent point about the 3-bet against an aggressive. I like your line better of calling and reassessing on the turn rather than going to war on the flop.

- Jim

[sthief09]

this is a pretty simple raise if you've been playing particularly tight and the table is tight, and if you don't do it too often. I slso think you played it well post-flop.

I don't understand why everyone has such problems with the PFR. suited connectors are great to raise sometimes beccause you (1) hit the flop more often, and (2) your opponents are putting you on high cards, and (3) you'll start getting less respect on your raises from anyone who noticed.

[sthief09]

I agree that that's a horrible statement. at a tight table, just about all your profit will come from post-flop play. anyone can play well post flop. all you have to do is look online somewhere or read a book. playing well post flop requires understanding of many concepts, hand reading skills, and a lot of experience. that is our huge edge over our opponents at a 5/10 table, not our preflop tightness.

[J.R.]

The raise on the flop means nothing,

Why do you say this. Surely you had to put him on something. Would he smooth call preflop with big cards and pop a raggedy flop. Isn't his play consistent with a medium pair or a 7 or 8? Is it liekly your oppoent has QJ, AK, or soem other ste of umimproved overcards?

I say this because the flop 3-bet out of position does not appear to have any value unless:
1) you opponent has unimproved over cards or a draw w/out a pair
2) he won't call down without a pair (so you can get a better hand A high, K high, etc) to fold.

You are a dog to a pair, even with an undercard kicker, but are a favorite over a pocket underpair to the board. I don't think you get a pair to fold, and can't take a free card. If you oppoent has an overpair, 8 or 7 you are likely to get popped on the turn. So intially I don't see much merit in the 3-bet.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you really think this ElSapo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with ElSapo. Postflop play is important, but I make a majority of my money at $2/$4 and $3/$6 because my opponents are playing cards I wouldn't touch.

-McGee

[sthief09]

I think the 3-bet does have value for 2 reasons. one, there's a reasonable chance that he's raising with overcards and will fold to hero's unimproved ten-high at some point, and he's a favorite over any . 2nd, if his opponent has any 8 or a lower PP, including A8, then they are even odds (A8 is a 51% favorite). the only hand I'd really prefer not to be against here is 99 or TT, 7x (which is unlikely), or JT. I like the 3-bet. he takes control of the hand and puts himself in position to push his opponent off overcards.

that only holds true if you think it's worth it to bet the turn and river unimproved if the opponent shows no more aggression. I think it is, but you might not.

if he had AK and the flop was JTT, then I'd say the 3-bet has no value since he has the nut no-pair. but the fact that he only has ten-high means often enough he'll get high-carded on the river if it gets checked through, and sometimes he'll fold to a hand that would've folded to his bet (like JT or QJ bluffing the river)

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm with ElSapo. Postflop play is important, but I make a majority of my money at $2/$4 and $3/$6 because my opponents are playing cards I wouldn't touch.

[/ QUOTE ]

this hand came from 5/10. from my experience at 5/10 the opponents mostly play good cards but they can't play postflop. that's where you'll make your money. getting an extra bet when you're ahead and losing one less when you're behind.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the 3-bet does have value for 2 reasons. one, there's a reasonable chance that he's raising with overcards and will fold to hero's unimproved ten-high at some point, and he's a favorite over any . 2nd, if his opponent has any 8 or a lower PP, including A8, then they are even odds (A8 is a 51% favorite). the only hand I'd really prefer not to be against here is 99 or TT, 7x (which is unlikely), or JT. I like the 3-bet. he takes control of the hand and puts himself in position to push his opponent off overcards.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think your preflop raising isn't the problem in your game but when you do raise (which is a lot) you keep betting raising because it seems you feel you deserve to win and because the pot is big. His opponent is loose aggressive so 3-betting has no meaning. Even against overcards you still have to catch one of your outs. You're not going to bluff him of his hand.

Guido

[Nate tha' Great]

It looks like he might have exactly T9. This might not be a horrible spot to bet the river.

[BigEndian]

Sory J.R., I meant it means nothing relative to my holding on the turn. My opponent could very well have held an 8 by the flop action. It wasn't until my oppoent raised the turn that he was representing a solid holding.

I would say there is some value in the 3-bet in that a good number of times my opponent will fold an unimproved 8 on the turn after being 3-bet on the flop - just not this guy apparently /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

- Jim

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your preflop raising isn't the problem in your game but when you do raise (which is a lot) you keep betting raising because it seems you feel you deserve to win and because the pot is big. His opponent is loose aggressive so 3-betting has no meaning. Even against overcards you still have to catch one of your outs. You're not going to bluff him of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you're saying his opponent won't fold Q or K-high on the river? obviously you're not pushing him off a pair, even 22, but he's even odds or a favorite against anything but JT, 98, T8, 7x, 99, or TT, and a LAG is probably raising those last 2 preflop. he's getting even money on his raise, for what's probably an even money proposition, with the advantage of being able to push his opponent off overcards when he misses. if a Q or K comes I'd probably give up though.

and I see what you're saying that I keep betting and raising because it's "my pot" but if semi-bluff betting the turn is +EV then it's +EV. in this case I think betting the turn if a non-A/K/Q comes is +EV IMO, and so is the flop 3-bet.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say there is some value in the 3-bet in that a good number of times my opponent will fold an unimproved 8 on the turn after being 3-bet on the flop - just not this guy apparently /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'll never assume any PP player folds an 8 in this hand, ever. also, did you know he was a LAG before or after the hand? from this it seems like you didn't realize he was that way.

[BigEndian]

I didn't really get a good feel for the player until this hand. I'd only seen 30 hands with him and while his numbers indicated LAGish tendencies, that's not a good sample set.

I don't recall having seen his cards at showdown and hadn't looked at his hand histories until I reviewed him this morning - he'd been loosing at show-down those times that did get there.

- Jim

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you really think this ElSapo. And there's a lot of leeway in saying "weak opposition".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is because I'm not very good.

[ QUOTE ]
His hand turned out to be a horribly over-played A8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe I am...

[Guido]

Why are you so sure his opponent has overcards? I didn't notice the backdoor flush that changes it a little but I still think it only increases your variance. And you have to be positive you can push him of his hand. You said A/K/Q but what about a J? I see a lot of players call down with just an ace or king... I agree that 3-betting the flop has a little +EV but you have to be sure he has overcards and when he does you can push him of his hand.

Guido

[sthief09]

I'm not sure he has overcards. I don't think his play is indicitive of overcards. but when he does have overcards, there's a very little chance he's calling king-high or lower. I admit it's a stretch to expect A-high to fold though.

and if a J turns, that gives him a straight. that's why I just said A/K/Q. originally I wrote A/K/Q/J, but I realized if he folded to a turned J he'd be folding the nut straight /images/graemlins/wink.gif