Three Hands with two maniacs.

I need some serious help here and was hoping for some perspective. I was a the Taj saturday, playing a $5-$10 game with one maniac. All was well and good, and it became very easy to write off his three-bets and caps as weak draws, or middle pair, no kicker.


Anyhow, I am about even when maniac number two enters. Manac number two is drinking heavily, loving life, and bets everything. I am not kidding, he will bet/raise at almost any oppurtunity. Laughs loudly, and raises all the way through without looking at his cards exclaiming "Why should I look at im', I play them all the same way" as he bets, raises, re-raises, caps. I of course, as well as others, am stuck between two maniacs. The two maniacs obviously don't get along, and proceed to cap almost everything(Although the second maniac will sometimes behave if you check-raise him.)


Hand 1: Red Queens, Capped pre-flop..Felt good cause I made it two bets, new maniac three-bet without looking at his cards, and I capped it. The whole table is on tilt now and seven take the flop for 14 big bets in the pot.


Flop T82 rainbow. I see the T8 and I am very worried...I figure I will check-raise to try and limit the field. Checked to old maniac who bets. Two two people call, i check-raise, new maniac three bets, old maniac caps. Five people stay in for another 10 big bets, bringing us up to 24 big bets in the pot. I check and call it down with the old maniac betting and new maniac just calling(I was amazed). Four people stayed, two rags hit, Old Maniac drags the pot with a set of twos (32 big bet pot, cost me 6)


Second Hand : A couple of hands later I am in the big blind with K2 suited. By the time it gets to me its two-bets(one more) with eight people...Normally I wouldn't play King Trash suited, but I figured I had the odds with eight callers(was trying to think on my tows to adjust to the game). I call(praying it will only cost me one bet, but knowing I am looking at another cap), and long story short I end up losing my flush to the original(non-drunk) maniac who has A4s.


Third hand is a pretty typical straight getting rivered by a full house.


Anyhow, it took all of 40 minutes to drop over three bills(about 35 big bets). In retrospect, I think I should have done alot differently. Here are my questions.


1)Should I have even been there. As this was going on I was thinking to myself "This is awesome" I got one who frequently three-bets the ignorant end of a straight with four parts on the board, and someone capping it who hasn't even looked at his cards yet. But it all went so very very wrong. I am thinking that the best move would have been to take a walk.


2)Any comment on the pocket Queens would be greatly appreciated. I felt obligated to get bets in to try and protect my hand, but maybe I should have realized that no one was going anywhere.


3)If I do decide to stay in these games, how should I adjust my starting hand requirements. I realize I am going to have to flop a monster to feel comfortable, but what hands are worth staying in with when you know it will be capped pre-flop? Huge pairs even seem sketchy, since you will likely need a set, or the board to pair low to win(and even then in this game you would likely be against trips).Even thouhg I got burned with Kxs, flushes in this game were rarely higher than a Jack.


4)Can these games be profitable? I had good reads on most of the people at the table, and knew I had the best hand preflop, but flopping top pair, ace kicker with AK, AQ, AJ seemed very unprofitable. I lost another hundred very quickly with these "premeium" hands


Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I generally consider myself a solid player, but when things get out of hand like this, I always end up losing a ton of money. One of the guys at my table used to live in CA, and said the game reminded him of the $8-$16 HE he played at home.


Thanks,

-J

Looks like the whole table was turning into maniacs. Anyway, the idea is to try to isolate a maniac, but in this case it seems impossible. Read HPFAP pg.130 on the subject to get some ideas on where to sit, what hands to play, etc. If that doesn't work, find a new game. Good Luck--Ron

Maniac games take some getting used to. I would tell you that Axs, large suited connectors, and pairs do well. Big unsuited cards do not. I usually muck AKo in these games, unless for some odd reason the game calmed down for a round or two. If you're going to dump a rack of chips in by the river, you want to have at least a set. These games are generally won on straights or better. Too much chasing. Kxs, as you learned, is the hand you want the manaic chasing with.

That's standard issue 3-6 and sometimes 6-12 in NorCal. Sometimes standard issue 15-30 on weekends.


Pocket pairs, suited aces, big suited connectors. That's about it for me in those games, but be ready to lose big even if it gets capped around you when you have AA or AKs. You're gambling with the best of it, but you're still gambling...

JimC, I played $5./10 Friday night at boat Aztar in Evansville, IN. It was a must-move table. We had a maniac there that was drinking and having a great time. He was a friendly maniac and had all of us laughing, and he was throwing chips to the cocktail waitresses and dealers like they were going out of style.


This guy never looked at his cards either until after the flop. He either raised, reraised or capped. I was across the table from him at this first table. About two hours into a four-hour session, I had to move; but I knew he would be right behind me because he was next in line to move. Sure enough, in about 15 minutes he was setting at my table and immediately on my left. I told everyone to fasten their seat belts because we were in for a bumpy ride. I simply didnt see the flop if my holdings wouldnt stand a raise. I didnt play many hands because my cards were lousy. Up front I played only Group 1 and 2 hands. As our position improved, I would play all pairs and suited connectors down to about 65 if there were 5 callers in front of me. I got to hell out after the flop if I didnt have a made hand or one hell of a good draw to a non-threatening board.


I ended up 2.5 BB per hour ahead at the end of the session. If I hadnt used extraordinary patience and discipline, I wouldnt have been so fortunate.


Man, it was fun though /images/smile.gif /images/smile.gif


Don Quixote

the QQ hand i wouldve waited for the turn to knock players out. the pots way too big.


the Kxs hand i wouldnt have seen the flop. you have 2 maniacs. would you see this flop for 2 bets coming to you? with 2 maniacs you can figure it being raised behind you. it doesnt look like you considered this...


offsuit hands suck in these games. AJo, AQo..forget em. also understand where youll be able to 'protect' your hand, and where youll be pot building. protecting is not on the flop. if you flop a monster, bet it, but use the turn a little, to knock some players out. noones going anywhere on the flop in these games.


these games are profitable, but your swings will be huge. as you experienced. and the more hands you play, the bigger your variance.


i personally hate these games because of the variance factor. i tend to get a table change soon. i dont play cap preflops type of tables. if i did, and had the roll to beat it, id move up to where that cap is the initial blind. BUT some really dig these games...theyll probably be more help...


jsut some ideas...


b

Actually, later on the game went short handed(6 players) and only the drunk maniac was playing. I won about a hundred dollars in thirty minutes off this guy. Basically, if it was folded around to me preflop I would raise with any Ace or King to try to get it heads up with him. Any Ace or King high was often good. I get the impression that this guy had a lot of money and looked at the game like craps or blackjack... I will say this, I have never had so much fun losing so much money.


Thanks,

-J

Mucking AKo offsuit in this game is a major mistake. Check out this link:

Although AKo goes down in value with a maniac in the game, if he is the only one doing the raising, you should not be dropping AKo. The game conditions would have to include capped betting for a lot of players preflop in order to consider this fold. Or, if a rock who never raises does something like three-bet the maniac. If you can reduce the field, you should be raising AK, not folding it.

I agree with Bernie's advice.


I used to get in one of these games and think "This is great. With a table playing like maniacs I should be able to make some money." I'd play as others had recommended as well (mainly pairs, suited connectors, suited big cards, suited aces -- get out if the flop misses you). Sometimes I'd come out ahead, and sometimes I'd lose a LOT. However, for me, the variance is just too high.


In a normal loose-passive game I will make my one BB per hour. After weeks of this I don't want to risk losing everything I've worked for in one session. Granted I could double a months worth of winnings in that session as well, but I'd prefer to find another game.

Jim,


Hand 1. Well played. QQ is supposed to lose a fair amount of money in this hand. Anyone who thinks you can "protect" your hand with a better raising strategy is misguided.


Hand 2. You had no business in this hand. You have to stand to make a huge amount of money after the flop to consider playing Axs or Kxs if it is capped pre-flop.


In a game like this, you need to consider how many people are seeing the flop and river. You also have to judge how much money you have to pay on each street. My experience is that these games get into a rhythm of their own. A single maniac who raises every hand and gets the field short-handed requires a completely different style than a pair of maniacs who get 7-way capped action to the turn. The more raising and the more customers there are the better hand you need to have at showdown.


You have two maniacs who seem to be capping BTF and on the flop. Your whole table has decided to join the fun by calling. There aren't a lot of hands that can stand this kind of action. You are pretty much stuck playing pairs and big suited cards (by big I mean AKs, AQs, and maybe AJs). You might be ahead mucking everything worse than AKs. You want to have a set, a big flush draw with Broadway outs, or the biggest two-pair available. Otherwise it goes like:


You see A5s, and pay 2BB to see the flop. You flop a flush draw some percentage of the time and invest another 2BB. If you miss, you get to invest 2-4BB on the turn to continue the draw. This is a terrible situation, and it is pretty much what you hoped for when you started calling. Most people lose in these games, and hands like this are exactly what they are looking for. Normally, flush over flush is a rare occurrence. 9-handed to the river makes this much more likely than in a “normal” game. If you play 2nd and 3rd nut flushes, you may get some unpleasant surprises on the river. If you are going to play draws in this sort of game, make them to the nuts.


If you can get heads-up or short-handed with the maniac, you should start playing more hands and attempt to isolate. If not, you have to limit the amount of gambling you do against a large field for multiple raises. An expert in these situations can judge how likely a cap is in a give hand and play more hands accordingly.


I am always amazed to see someone limp in when a raise is 90% likely and then agonize over calling the next two raises. In this game you know the situation. There is going to be a raise. If your hand can’t handle the raises and the number of callers, it should be in the muck. There is nothing tricky about this sort of game. You know there are lots of raises and lots of callers.


Doug

I couldn't get the link. However, I do agree with one maniac in the game AKo is a raising hand, particularly when you can get heads up.However, with two maniacs that remain aggressive post-flop, a key difference, then mucking AKo is not that much of a mistake. The key element to AKo is that top pair, top kicker is generally good in a normal game. It can at times win unimproved. These games are far from normal, and to reduce the roller coaster ride, mucking this hand in these games is routine for me. BTW, if it adds any credibility, I got this advice second hand from Barry Tannenbaum. One of the greats.