So you really want to play No Limit?

[Jester999]

My play on this hand was nothing short of egregious. Here goes.

I've made the move to 1/2 $200 buy in on Pokestars and I've been doing quite well. I had this had come up last night and I lost my whole stack. Pitiful.

I'm in EP ($194) and get dealt 7s. LP raises to $12. She's the big stack and obviously can play a little. I've watched her take money from several people and I respect her play. BB ($200) calls and I call. The flop comes 4 5 6 rainbow. The BB checks. I also check. It seems that it's time to lead into the raiser here or check raise. The range of hands I believe this person has is small. A big pair, AK suited, MAYBE AQ suited as the table is fairly tight and it's her game as of the moment. She bets $25 into a $36 pot. I call.

The turn brings a 10 putting two diamonds on the board. I check again and the raiser checks. After not betting the flop, it felt awkward to bet the turn. I'm on the defensive and out of position. Great combination for NL huh?

The river comes the 8 of diamonds giving me a straight and completing the possible flush. Now, I decide to lead out for $40. Duh. The only hands that are going to play with me are hands I can't beat particularly a giant flush. I no longer thinks she has a big pair because the turn bet wouldn't make sense in that case. She moves all in quickly and I call...quickly...doh!

She shows me the AK of diamonds and takes me whole stack. This is bad on so many levels but I want to understand the nuances of my moronic play completely so I don't get 'stacked' again.

Thoughts?

[turnipmonster]

I think your bet will get called by lots of non flush hands. I think you can safely fold to an allin raise here though, although it does seem unlikely she would have a flush.

--turnipmonster

[Jester999]

The flush seemed unlikely to me also, thus the quick call. But when I thought about it later, she knew I was hanging around for some reason the straight being most obvious. She could have put me on trips, but I should have known without a doubt I was beat.

What about your play on the flop? And would you have even seen the flop?

Thanks for taking time to commment.

[turnipmonster]

personally I would have called preflop, and led into the PF raiser on the flop for around 25. it's a good flop for 77, and it's pretty likely this flop missed the raiser. my main thought in this hand is not to give a free or cheap card on this flop when I probably have the best hand. a preflop raiser with position will usually bet any flop that's checked to them, so I want to put them to a decision by leading into them. against an overpair you are not in great shape:

http://www.twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=4s+5d+6h&d=&h=7s+7h%0D%0AQd+Qh

but you aren't that much of a dog, so I probably play back if the PF raiser raises on the flop (especially if it's a minraise). you are drawing very live against almost any hand they could have.

I am more worried about the BB if he doesn't fold. if HE plays back, it's a more difficult decision.

--turnipmonster

[BigBiceps]

Fold preflop.

Don't call an additional 5 BB's when 1) it is 3 handed, 2) the raiser has position on you, and 3) you only have a pair of sevens.

[AZK]

I disagree, I think he is getting the correct odds in the hopes of flopping a set due to the BB calling. If I'm thinking correctly, the call if it were heads up is right around 10% of his stack, but now that the BB has called, that makes it lot easier...

Additionally, with low PP, they are essentially easy to play, you hit a set you play, so I think position is sort of irrelevant, until he flopped the OESD.

...correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jester999]

I thought about folding preflop but it seems a classic example of Ciaffone's 5/10 rule. And once the BB came along, I felt it was right to call. The flop made it complicated.

I wish I had led, but the specter of the BB made me hesitant. Once I checked, she led and he folded I 'almost' check/raised.

Sorry to keep this thread alive, but does the check raise make sense to anyone? Or does it come off as fishy?

Again, thanks for taking time out to reply.

[fsuplayer]

A $10 raise, with a almost $200 stack and another caller who has you covered, this is an autocall in this situation.
You have more than enough implied odds, esp. against an overpair, and position isnt of much importance bc a set is not difficult to play out of position.

Flop: I would lead out, see what LP does (and the BB), before planning the next move.
{preflop however, I would call any pocket pair here)

FsuPlayer

[fsuplayer]

Maybe I should read every post before I reply as it looks like I am just regurgitating (sp.) everything AZK said. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Not used to being up this early.

FsuPlayer

BTW Call preflop /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DcifrThs]

if i call with 77 and a LP as you described raises for 12 after i limp and i call and the flop is like that i cannot fathom checking and calling.

bet, or checkraise. if she is checked to and was the pf raiser its almost certain she'd bet at the pot for sure to protect her nut nopair type hand and would likely bet AT LEAST the pot with a pair, probably more. so i'd check with the intention of raising most of the time if she underbets the pot.

betting out the pot isn't a bad idea either since it is a dangerous board even if she has AA and you limped early and called a raise signalling a pair or hand you WANT to play.

great flop for your hand and even if you're behind you have so many outs since you know where shes at its sick...i don't think i'd be completely averse to checkraising all in since it LOOKS like a draw and you'd likely be called by AK, AQ in addition to all those pairs and you're not that much of a dog and can be ahead a lot of times. either way i bet, checkraise, or checkfold (very unlikely...she'd need to bet ALOT for that to occurr...more than i could c-r her with)

-Barron

[Jester999]

Check calling is such a bad play it's ridiculous. I got off the computer after the next round to cool down.

Thanks for all the replies. Just wanted to make sure my post hand thinking was correct. I HATE making the same mistake twice.

[bugstud]

you call an allin if you checkraise and they push?

[DcifrThs]

depends for how much... pot size vs. bet size...open ended straight draw + two sevens.

-Barron

[Jester999]

I think you have to look at it this way. What would your raise of her $25 bet be? Then you just look at your pot odds and go from there. If she puts you all in, it's a given she has a big pair (or at least that would be my thinking). You have 10 outs. What price are you getting for the rest of your money?

I would be inclined to add it up and make that my raise. For example, the pot contained $61 after her bet, I probably would have raised $60 leaving me about $125 or close. If she then put me all in for the last of it, the pot would have contained $240. The pot's offering me 1.9 to 1 approximately. I have 10 outs and two draws at it. In this case, I call because I think I'm getting what I need.

In the end though, 2 of my outs ended up being toxic but there would have been no way to see that.

Is this thinking correct?

[DcifrThs]

getting 1.9:1 is a call with those 2 outs and a fold w/o them.

how could you know 88 was there? that is CERTAINLY not the pair i'd be thinking she had.
-Barron

[NotAClue]

Think he's referring to 3 and 8 of diamonds

[Jester999]

[ QUOTE ]
getting 1.9:1 is a call with those 2 outs and a fold w/o them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Truly. In reality, I think she would have laid her hand down to a check/raise since she just had overs and a back door flush draw. But if she HAD had a big pair, then the outs aren't toxic and the call is the right play. Conjecture, but that's where I was headed.

[ QUOTE ]
how could you know 88 was there? that is CERTAINLY not the pair i'd be thinking she had.

[/ QUOTE ]

She had AK of diamonds so I'm not following your point here. I'm also paying company bills and playing 6 handed at Party so I might just be brain dead. Extrapolate, please. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DcifrThs]

well yea but i was going under the assumption that he'd be moved in. i don't think this tight player would do that with the diamond draw. thus im assuming a pair, thus 88 for the two 7's to be dead outs.

but yes, if the flush draw is what she's got then 3d 8d are also dead outs...but i'm going from the flop as if its going to be all in...and judging by her underbet w/ AKd she clearly wouldn't move him in w/o a pair.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

sure...when you said "2 of your outs are dead" i was assuming on the flop and only 1 diamond. i was further assuming she'd move you in after you checkraised and therefore only the 2 7's could cause a problem for somebody holding then vs. 88
-Barron

[Jester999]

I understand. On the flop, none of my outs are dead. It's on the turn where they become toxic. I stated it in an incorret and confusing manner. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks again for the replies.

[NotAClue]

It seems check-raising all in on the flop would be the best play if you put her on a big pair. She might lay down the big pair right there, and if she calls you, well all your money is in and you have the odds to outdraw her. Since it's a rainbow board if she does have Axs (AK or AQ), she's likely to fold unless she's an idiot.

[Jason Strasser]

Let's make a collage!!

[ QUOTE ]
She's the big stack and obviously can play a little. I've watched her take money from several people and I respect her play.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A big pair, AK suited, MAYBE AQ suited as the table is fairly tight and it's her game as of the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alrighty. You made a read, maybe you didn't know it. As many previous posters said, you have to bet this flop. Overcards will fold most likely. By checking to the raiser, the raiser has every reason to believe her AK is good. You also find out where you stand if you bet. You should be happy to take down this small pot. I would fire a pot bet. A reasonable opponent will read you for a set (fearful of the 4 straight), or at least a pocket pair.

The river comes along, and well, you are screwed. But it didn't have to come down to that. Betting in position, in no limit poker, is the standard. Because you didn't bet, you really have NO idea what your opponent has at this time. This is all a mess you made!

GLUCK

[Rounder 24/7]

I think I aggree with everyone on your preflop play. But like you said your flop play was terrible. I'd favour a check raise here rather than betting out. I'd want to see how the raiser plays that flop and more importantly, how the bb plays. However if the big blind folded I'd most deffinately move in on the raiser with my whole stack.
You would be putting alot of pressure on the overpair and alot good players (which you seem to think she was) would pass in this spot. From their perspective they're either a small favourite to win if ur drawing or a huge dog if already ur made. I'd diffinately want to push for her whole stack to put maximum pressure on her to fold. If u dont succeed and get called - tough luck and hope you hit your outs!