stress getting to Gus Hansen?

[whiskeytown]

from pokerpages.com forum - gotta wonder if this is just 4 days of poker playing taking it's toll - this is a horrible all in on his part - (and I think he raised preflop too)

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Hansen OUT!
A huge hand at the feature table:
Gus Hansen opened for $9,000, and was called by Matthias Andersson and Frank Braybec. The flop came 10s 5h Ks. Hansen moved all in, Braybec reraised all in, and Andersson called. Braybec showed Kd 10c (top two pair), Hansen showed 8s 5s (bottom pair w/ flush draw), and Andersson showed As Qs (nut/royal flush draw, inside straight draw). The turn came 4h, the river came 3s. Andersson made the nut flush, and won the $560,000 pot. Hansen was eliminated, and Braybec was down to about $70,000.

[Lori]

He raised preflop to steal and got called in two places, then he flopped a pair and a flush draw giving up to 14 outs.
He had secured 15k and needed to go up over 100 places to get to 30k, although people in the internet forum disagree with me, I think his play was fine.

Edit: On the flop the AQs checked and next player bet 50k, Hansen was semi bluffing with his all in to pick up a tidy pot.

Lori

[B Dids]

I think the preflop play is lousy, but if you're goign to play that hand- you've got to move once you get a piece of the flop. I think post flop he played it fine.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
He raised preflop to steal and got called in two places, then he flopped a pair and a flush draw giving up to 14 outs.
He had secured 15k and needed to go up over 100 places to get to 30k, although people in the internet forum disagree with me, I think his play was fine.

Edit: On the flop the AQs checked and next player bet 50k, Hansen was semi bluffing with his all in to pick up a tidy pot.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Lori, the only reason I disagreed is you would think a World Class player could pick a better spot to get all his money in. AND he would have been left with 75K in chips, slightly below average at the time and certainly not threatened by the blinds and antes. AND when you are drawing to a flush, a world class player should know better than to commit all his chips wihtout the nut flush draw. You would think when he bet the flop and got called and re-raised that his flush was no goood even if it hit.

That's why I disagreed, not that it's right or wrong, just my thoughts!

[dennischambers]

I disagree with you guys' critique of Gus's play. I think this move was completely irrational. Gus's preflop steal was understandable (we all try sometimes), but when the flop comes with two relatively big cards (K and 10), chances are that the flop hit someone with either a pair, two pair, or a straight draw. Considering Gus's wild, reckless, and often irrational style, both of the players probably would have called Gus with even top pair. Pushing here is just asking to get slapped on the wrist. I hope this hand teaches Gus that while his aggressive, big-bullying style may work for a while against so-called "professional" players who "make good laydowns" and are more like tight-weak players, and that a real player will see through his mumbo-jumbo crappy style and call him, busting him like the little worm he is. Sorry, this is a bit of a tirade, but I don't like Gus and i'm glad he's gone. That's right Patterson guy. I hope you read this; I don't like Gus.
My two cents, Thanks,
Andrew

[B Dids]

I don't think you understand Gus's play on this hand, or Gus's game in general.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the preflop play is lousy, but if you're goign to play that hand- you've got to move once you get a piece of the flop. I think post flop he played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, how is the pre-flop play lousy? He was steal-raising and got busted. He should have gotten away from his hand, even though he caught a piece of it on the flop.

[B Dids]

My steal standards are higher than 84s. Maybe "lousy" was the wrong way to put it, but is isn't a play that I like. I understand Gus is a great player, but I don't see a need to get cute with the substandard hands that Gus plays.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
My steal standards are higher than 84s. Maybe "lousy" was the wrong way to put it, but is isn't a play that I like. I understand Gus is a great player, but I don't see a need to get cute with the substandard hands that Gus plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

A steal is just that, you can steal with anything, even 2,7 off, if you get called, you either shut it down or try to buy it, but you don't push in on two players with bottom pair and a weak flush draw after they have called and re-raised you.

[PlayerA]

[ QUOTE ]
so-called "professional" players who "make good laydowns" and are more like tight-weak players

[/ QUOTE ]

This is funny. You really think pros are tight-weak?

[Lori]

I've just seen one site claim Gus was the 2nd caller of the AQss raise.

For sake of argument, I don't think this is bad either.

Stew: For me the fact that I don't have a nut flush draw is countered by the extra outs of having a pair, If Im up against top two (or trips) and a nut flush draw (like he was) then so be it.
I don't play like Gus, but I think the whole point of playing like he does is to catch this kind of flop in position and to semi-bluff.
I believe it raises his varience without seriously damaging his pot odds EV , and raised varience with +EV is a desireable tourney situation.

I predict it will be several (3-4) years before even the top pros get a handle on his game.

Lori

[B Dids]

I'd just rather steal with a hand that IF I catch part of the flop, I'm not doing exactly what Gus did. Caught the flop and still was drawing nearly dead. That said, I think his push was good based on the tournament situation that Lori described.

It should be noted that I'm not a great tournament player, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[FletchJr.]

I have to comment on your comments:

[ QUOTE ]
Gus's preflop steal was understandable (we all try sometimes), but when the flop comes with two relatively big cards (K and 10), chances are that the flop hit someone with either a pair, two pair, or a straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really don't think someone would call with a T here. And if someone did have a King-mid card such as KJ or K9 gus hansen has a pair AND a flush draw which leaves him 13 outs twice. The higher pair will have a redraw if gus hits 2 pair on the turn. The only hand Gus can be really crippled against is set. Which he isn't too far behind. about a 70:30 or against exactly what he was up against. A nightmare situation where someone flopped a higher flush draw, and his other opponent flopped a better made hand. So now he's ****ed.

Everyone's heard of Gus Hansen's reckless play, and it's very powerfull in NL tournies. IF someone where to call with QJ on that hand. Gus would be a decent sized favorite. His reckless play gives him the opportunity to accumulate loads of chips by constantly taking down small pots. It's a very good strategy, Doyle uses a similar stragety, i've heard. I'm still trying to learn to master this strategy, but it's very hard. And with all the action Online, lots of the times you must show down a hand.

Another plus to his strategy, is like you said:
[ QUOTE ]
Considering Gus's wild, reckless, and often irrational style, both of the players probably would have called Gus with even top pair

[/ QUOTE ]
Gus gets action on his made hands. IF he flopped say a set of TT's he'd be getting that action from the K's or, say he had AA this time and he'd be getting action. Rocks or just Tight/Aggressive NL tourny players will never get this kind of action. (ex. players calling preflop raises with KTo)

Ps. I don't really care if you like Gus Hansen or not.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
I've just seen one site claim Gus was the 2nd caller of the AQss raise.

For sake of argument, I don't think this is bad either.

Stew: For me the fact that I don't have a nut flush draw is countered by the extra outs of having a pair, If Im up against top two (or trips) and a nut flush draw (like he was) then so be it.
I don't play like Gus, but I think the whole point of playing like he does is to catch this kind of flop in position and to semi-bluff.
I believe it raises his varience without seriously damaging his pot odds EV , and raised varience with +EV is a desireable tourney situation.

I predict it will be several (3-4) years before even the top pros get a handle on his game.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, but the point is you don't know if you're flush card outs are any good. You have 5 solid outs, the 3 eights and 2 fives, that's why drawing to a flush that isn't even close to the nut flush is a horrible play in a MULTI WAY POT. Heads up, I think this is a perfectly played hand, but not multi-way.

[FletchJr.]

YOu may very well be right Stew. And I think Gus is still learning lots aswell. Would you imagine the amount of Poker knowledge you'd have to have, to be able to play a reckless style of NL Tourney Hold'em?
The fact that this hand is multi-way changes everything, and you have to try to put a player on a bigger flush draw.... IMO it would be a tough lay Down.

[dennischambers]

I'm a little upset about the things I said about Gus Hansen in my post. I've been getting a lot of flak about it, and I realized that it was mainly based on how excited/overjoyed I was about him busting out. I respect his play, and I agree with all the points that were made about the advantages of his crazy style. Your comparison to Doyle's style really made me appreciate him more, because I realized this was a lot like how Doyle used to play. However, that was a little bit different because people would buy in huge amounts into their games and that justified his crazy strategy, such as calling big raises with connectors. However, the comparison was telling. I realized that my problems aren't really with his play. I am, in fact, probabably just a bit jealous of him. So I want to retract my statements about Gus Hansen.
Regretfully Yours,
Andrew
P.S.- I don't think pros are tight-weak. I was just trying to be comical/inflammatory and I was really angry/excited at the time.

[whiskeytown]

just remember the difference between an excellent play and a mistake...

in the excellent play, when you raise, you don't get called, in the mistake, you do....identical except for that...LOL -

learned that from watching the WPT -

RB

[Grivan]

If you play affraid of a better draw everytime you have a draw then you will never amass chips. By Gus going all in he has a chance for Anderson to fold and free up thoose flush outs, which probably would of happened if Anderson had lower clubs. I don't know what the stack sizes are, but if the pot was a nice proportion of Hanson HAS to take the opportunity to win it.