10-20 NL hand

[J.A.Sucker]

Here's a hand I played at the Bellagio. 10-20 (20 to go). We're playing 6 handed. I'm in the BB (2K).

UTG (straightforward player) limps UTG (900 stack) for 20. The livest spot in the game makes it 80 to go (2500). He's a "thinking" bad player. He will fold, but he's also an action player, and the reason that I'm playing the game.

The SB calls 80 (2000). I have 8d6d and decide to see the flop. UTG calls. Comments on this play?

Flop: Jh Td 7d. SB checks, I check, UTG checks, LP bets 200. Folded back to me. I go all-in for about 1900.

[Baulucky]

I'll look for you at the Bellagio when I have the BR for that game...

Do you hate money?.

[gavrilo]

This doesn't seem right. You said "thinking".
If you are called, you are probably beat, unless he will call with a higher lone diamond or a set here.

[SpaceAce]

I'd be reluctant to to call a raise out of position with such a marginal hand, especially with a reasonable player in under the gun. What would the under the gun player limp with there? I know you want to be in pots with the live spot but can't you wait for a slightly better opportunity?

OK, anyway, if you're sure you can double through when you hit, why not play 86s, right? You say the live one will fold but will he fold if he hits? If he has AJ, is he going anywhere? I never know what to say when people post hands like this because I think you really need to be there to properly judge the situation. Unless the flop absolutely clobbered him or he has bigger diamonds, I guess you're in pretty good shape against most of what he could have.

SpaceAce

[Richie Rich]

Two quick scenarios...

Suppose you're up against AK/AQ:
http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=Jh+Td+7d&d=&h=8d+6d%0D%0AAd+Ks

If he has QQ:
http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=Jh+Td+7d&d=&h=8d+6d%0D%0AQd+Qs

Even worse, he could have JJ or TT. I know the possibilities go on, but looking at these numbers alone, I don't think this is a situation where I'd want to shoot all my bullets against the live player. Since you couldn't put out a positional raise, I think a smooth call would have been better.

[1800GAMBLER]

You say the reason you are still in this game is for the liveone then you try to get all your chips in against him when you are on a coin flip? I don't play live, but i'd assume if a liveone loses $2k in one hand he doesn't rebuy? If so it doesn't matter. If he doesn't rebuy you just wasted the whole edge you have in that game.

Hand wise, preflop i hate these hands in this situation, they don't have much implied odds value and you are going to pay the max on each street.

Flop wise. 1. I think it's more profitable to call against a liveone who'll pay off. 2. I think your risk-reward on a $2k (10x) raise is awful against anyone but a manaically loose raiser or a very tight caller. TAPs and LAPs.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
You say the reason you are still in this game is for the liveone then you try to get all your chips in against him when you are on a coin flip? I don't play live, but i'd assume if a liveone loses $2k in one hand he doesn't rebuy?

[/ QUOTE ]

for 10/20 blinds, 2k is a short stack. so I'm guessing live one will rebuy.

[turnipmonster]

if you are bankrolled well enough to push small edges (and I assume you are) then this seems fine, although any experienced player will almost certainly put you on a big draw in this spot. people that truly balance their play in this spot are few and far between, so you are not going to get a lot of credit/folding equity here, because this particular move is overused.

--turnipmonster

[J.A.Sucker]

You think that my 8 hi isn't any good if I'm called? I was reasonably sure of that.

[J.A.Sucker]

I agree with everything that you say. I actually think that the preflop play is the most debatable, but I felt like playing, and had been playing pretty tight. That's also why I actually felt like I'd have pretty good folding equity on the 500 in the pot. If called, I'm getting 24:19, which seems great to me on a hand that's likely a coinflip.

I could wait for a better spot, but really, I didn't think that he'd be around for very long in the game, so I played it.

[J.A.Sucker]

I'm not sure if the live one would have stayed in the game had he gone broke. Call it a hunch, so I played.

[J.A.Sucker]

This guy wasn't an experience NL player, and really was kind of a strange bird altogether; it's hard for me to classify him in words, since you had to have been there.

In the hand, he went into the tank for about 2 minutes. He sheepishly called, and I got no help. I tapped the table and said "I missed, you win." And he showed 99. I rebought to cover, but eventually left the game before any more activity.

[gavrilo]

Disregard my first post. I was confused.

[The Gift Of Gab]

Preflop, whatever.

On the flop I like a call better since your draw's not that great and it's not like you need to give him action to get it. I'd want a better draw to move that many chips. He's going to call a lot and you're only ~42% against an overpair with a heart. Also, 200 into a 320 pot doesn't look strong, so you might be able to snatch the pot later or get a free card.

Bet you felt sick after this one.

[DcifrThs]

on this draw laden board it almost CERTAINLY looks like you're moving in on a draw.

but i think it may have been more effective to bet out and then move in unless thats what is read as a huge hand in that game.

whatever seems to be the norm for a draw is what i'd try to represent.

you said he'd fold and you don't think an all in c-r will make him fold? i'd like to get some $$ out of him over and above just $200 with this situation and vulnerable hand...well not EXACTLY vulnerable but either 8/47 times or 41/47*8/46 times i wouldn't be happy with the board and my 8 high flush...

does he raise if bet into with the same stuff he'll raise 80 preflop with on that board? (will he raise with the Ad here? if so i think its better to get him committed and putting in 1:1)

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

oops....just saw you didn't flop a flush and only a draw.

now i'd take the opposite side of my argument and in this case i think i'd look at a turn card and be done with it.

if he's live then let him be live...don't upset him with this kinda stuff...'cause now he'll be live...but with all YOUR money.

and the c-r realllllly does look like a draw now that there is a straight draw as well (before i thought "draw laden" would be any Kd or Ad...but now its any straight or 2diamonds).

wait for a better spot...i don't like it...

-Barron

[cero_z]

Hi gavrillo,
[ QUOTE ]
If you are called, you are probably beat

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it's doubtful that anyone will call with less than 8 high.
lol I assume you misread, and think he flopped a straight or flush.

[cero_z]

Hi J.A.,
[ QUOTE ]
I actually think that the preflop play is the most debatable

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true only in the sense that the play on the flop is pretty clearly terrible. I think you have to realize that a terrible NL player will call you here with a flush draw, as well as many other hands, unless he's a super-timid FOLDER (as opposed to a timid caller). Clearly from the results, he's not. You're a lot better off bluffing him when he has no pair/no draw, and those situations will come up a lot, with him in every pot. As for the pre-flop call, I'd make it if I was reading/controlling the table well, but if you're gonna try something like that bluff, I think you're better off folding it pre-flop.

[BigBiceps]

Fold preflop.

All that 86s usually flops is draws - which aren't to the nuts anyway. This hand flops alot of things which will trap you ... which is how the flop came.

I would have folded preflop and either called or folded on the flop ... but definately would not risk my whole stack on a non-nut draw with two undercards.

[turnipmonster]

I put the weak player on a big pair, and as such he is almost certainly good if he hits. I'd say sucker is drawing very live here.

only problem is if the live one has AKs, and has high card strength plus the flush. once I saw a 10k side pot in a 5-5 blinds game won with A high. one guy had the straight flush draw, the other guy the A high flush draw. no one got any help. the main pot was won by KK, and the biggest fish in the game had mucked AA and was taunting the KK guy on the flop.

--turnipmonster

[1800GAMBLER]

Only shemales fold on the flop.

[J.A.Sucker]

Personally, I put him on a weak hand and thought that he would fold like 80% of the time here. If he called, then I figured that I was close to even money. I lost the parlay, and I was sick, as you anticipated.

Your plan is acually a little more difficult, given my relatively small stack (and his). I don't think that I'll move him off the hand anywhere else other than on the flop. The pot was pretty good sized after his bet, so I figured that I'd try to win it.

[turnipmonster]

I dunno, that's a lot of heat to be taking with those nines if you call and move in on the turn. he'll certainly have a hell of a time putting you on a draw there.

--turnipmonster

[J.A.Sucker]

Good point.