trying NL for the first time - how bad was this hand

[cjs]

party 25 NL - would like comments on how to play this hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($19.15)
MP2 ($12.50)
Hero ($95.83)
CO ($22.35)
Button ($22.50)
SB ($20.40)
BB ($15.05)
UTG ($35.55)
UTG+1 ($29.10)
UTG+2 ($69.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $2.75</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $2.25, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($6.75) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $93.08 (All-In)</font>, UTG+2 calls $66.65 (All-In).

Turn: ($166.48) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in) </font>

River: ($166.48) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in) </font>

Final Pot: $166.48
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $140.05, between Hero and UTG+2.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG+2 ($140.05).</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: $26.43, overbet by Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG+2 shows Kc Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Hero shows Tc As (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins $140.05. Hero wins $26.43. </font>

[gavrilo]

Uh...
I usually fold this preflop and the flop all-in is a tad extreme.

[cjs]

thought I was aliittle over the top - still learning. But had been running over the table before that with alot of raises, stealing blinds, etc. Is the nl game just a game of who has the nuts? Or does aggression win?

[samjjones]

Measured aggression is fine. Problem is what happens when you run into a monster...as you did here. You have to leave yourself the opportunity to get away from a hand, and the all-in was not a good move at that point in the hand.

[Loci]

No limit is a game of patience. While good cards help, you don't always need them; you need to know, however, when blank cards are enough to win. Don't make moves if they're not going to work... this is best found through a lot of trial and error with honing your gut feeling. When you get to be better, there will be moves that you can make to get the second nut to fold. There will also be times when you, with second nut, realize you should fold. Aggression is a key aspect of this game, but unless you're Daniel Negreanu or Scotty Nguyen, learning to be patient is far more important. I rarely bluff... that being said, in a twelve hour period, with players that expect me to play tight and know I'm only pushing all in with the nuts, I will make three or four steals on monster pots that my opponents usually feel they'd be throwing their money away to see my cards face up. This, obviously, isn't everyones style. When I have cards, I make them pay every cent to see them through aggressive raises or tricks like check raises/smooth calls. When you have a winner, just be smart enough to get everyone elses money in the pot. If you have a loser and sense they're also weak, bet a solid amount that will scare them as opposed to the transparent all in move... as the saying goes, it works everytime but once.

[Sundevils21]

I would make a note on UTG+2, that says he is capable of limping in EP with KK. Notes like this can help out a lot down the road.

[Prevaricator]

The only real way you are going to get called with a bet like that on the flop is if they have QJ, AK, or a set (hands that can beat yours). I don't like that play.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the nl game just a game of who has the nuts? Or does aggression win?

[/ QUOTE ]

your problem in this hand is you don't know whether you're bluffing, value betting or semibluffing.

when you make a huge bet that will only get called if you are beat, that is a bluff. when you are bluffing, your cards don't matter. you could have 72o. check out "tournament poker for advanced players" where he talks about unwittingly turning your hand in 72o.

when you are value betting, your aim is to get called by a hand you can beat. so the first question to ask yourself in no limit before you bet (and if you aren't bluffing) is always "if I get called, what is he going to call me with?"

semibluffing in no limit is pretty tricky, the most common form being raising allin on the flop with a flush draw. this way there is a good chance your opponent folds, but if you get called you have a 2 to 1 shot to hit your hand.

also, two general observations about aggression. be aggressive in position. you shouldn't be playing many pots out of position period, but you are going to get yourself into some really bad situations by being aggressive out of position. also, as in any game, the more information you have about your opponent and his possible holdings, the easier it is to be aggressive and apply pressure to make him fold. blind aggression against unfamiliar opponents is a recipe for losing a lot of chips.

--turnipmonster

[Don_Lapre]

I'm not sure I'd raise with A-10, it's not a terrible play but I'd be more inclined to fold because it's a tricky hand. If you get called you kicker might be worthless. In the hand you posted a better course of action might be to make a pot size bet on the flop, maybe $4-5 dollars and see what happens. If your opponent played back it you and you be facing a tough decison that would depend on your read of his play before the hand. If your opponent just called I would be concerned with the possibilty of QJ, but probably put him on a flush draw, AQ, or AJ. Still a tough hand regardless.

DL

[Richie Rich]

Several mistakes...

(1) raising PF with A10o. This is NOT typically a raising hand in NL.
(2) nice flop, you caught two pair. But why go all-in for such a small pot?

Hands that beat you on the flop are...AA/KK/TT/AK/QJ. Granted UTG+2's PF limp and flop check with KK is from out of the blue...but maybe he was setting this move because you were being extremely OVER-aggressive on many other hands. You can do this for a while, but sooner or later, someone is gonna trap you...nature of the game.

btw- you built your stack up nicely before this hand /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Acesover8s]

In poker one should always think about what one is trying to accomplish by a betting, raising, or checking. In NL poker you must also think about the size of your bet.

When flopping two pair it is important to destroy the odds of players who may be drawing to a gutshot or flush while at the same time not giving your stack away to someone who has outflopped you.

PS I fold this hand preflop, unless shorthanded.

[MS Sunshine]

If the limp in front of you is a loose caller then I would raise pre-flop, but if not I muck this hand preflop. AT 1st-in for a raise with two players behind has value in two ways. You can pick-up the blinds OR someone calls, usually one of the blinds and you have an OK hand with position. It is the combination of those two that gives the hand it's value. With the unknown limper you pretty much lose the chance of picking up the pot preflop. So, all you have is an ace crappy kicker. Not the hand you wish when you play NLH.

The flop all-in stunk up the place. There is $7 in the pot, you put your entire stack at risk, and would only have been called if you're beat.

Don't take the advice in this thread as harsh. We have all been in your spot. It is a long process and we are all at different points in it. Learn from this and move on. Continue to post you trouble hands. In a few months someone will post almost this exact hand, and it will not be because the hand stood-up, you will be able to pass on your hard-fought wisdom.

MS Sunshine

[cjs]

What I have been doing - again am new to it - to see how it works, is if I'm going to play a hand to bring it in for a raise. At this buy-in usually $3 was my opening raise. It accomplished two things - 1. I would pick the blinds up on a regular basis and 2. limit the field to usually 1 caller.

These two things made playing the hands straight foward. If a player played back strong I would give him credit for a good to great hand.

I hadn't raised all-in in many hands - didn't need to. Don't think I will again without a stronger hand. So it has been going well so far, this hand just made me realize that you cannot be commonplace about risking your stack. Two pair is a good not great hand and a 5-10 dollar bet would have accomplished the same thing ( folding a worse hand ) without risking too much.

One question - is pot limit a better game? Eliminates that big bet.

[MS Sunshine]

What I have been doing - again am new to it - to see how it works, is if I'm going to play a hand to bring it in for a raise. At this buy-in usually $3 was my opening raise. It accomplished two things - 1. I would pick the blinds up on a regular basis and 2. limit the field to usually 1 caller.

There is nothing wrong with being a high 1st-in raiser, but limping players in front of you gives you several choices. Some hands, small pairs, Axs and low suited connectors do well limping behind a few limpers. Hands like Aj and AQ are tough to play behind limpers by raising. You have to be right about where you are in the hand. This comes with experience.

These two things made playing the hands straight foward. If a player played back strong I would give him credit for a good to great hand.

The problem with this hand is if an ace flops and you get action.

I hadn't raised all-in in many hands - didn't need to. Don't think I will again without a stronger hand. So it has been going well so far, this hand just made me realize that you cannot be commonplace about risking your stack. Two pair is a good not great hand and a 5-10 dollar bet would have accomplished the same thing ( folding a worse hand ) without risking too much.

Bingo

One question - is pot limit a better game? Eliminates that big bet.

Pot-limit has more skill to it. NLH has it's advantages if you over bet in the right spots. The biggest is being able to shut the draws out on the turn when a blank comes with an over pot-size bet. Read Caiffones PLH/NLH book.

John

[sniperd]

I find pot limit very difficult myself, much harder than NL. The check raise is super powerful in pot limit and I believe it must be used there to do well. In no limit, you never have to 'build the pot' so you can get the right raises in, you can raise whatever you want.

I tried the pot limit at Foxwoods a few times, and found that I kept wanted to move in, or bet more at times, but could not. I also realized that I had no pot building skills since I mainly play NL!