Slow play was the wrong way... a little Presto magic!

[DogRockets]

Having a feeding frenzy at Party Empire this weekend. UTG+1,UTG+2 & MP1 are typical solid players, MP3 is playing and showing down almost every hand, CO is loose/passive as are the blinds. Table is very loose with some nice pots being built mostly by MP3. Unfortunately, MP3 decides to fold for maybe the 2nd time tonight. Was counting on a least 1 raise from him (sigh) /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, between MP1, CO and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (19.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows As Kd (one pair, aces).
CO shows Qh 8h (two pair, queens and eights).
Hero shows 5c 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.25 BB. </font>

The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK allows me to hang in there and chase this pot which I would normally drop after the flop. I think the hand demonstrates the potential for small pocket pairs which a lot of people shy away from. MP3 was sadly missed at the river as this is where he would normally raise MP1's bet to try and force CO and Hero to fold. Had MP3 stayed, this hand had the the potential of a 30BB payoff.

[ThePopinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
Having a feeding frenzy at Party Empire this weekend. UTG+1,UTG+2 &amp; MP1 are typical solid players, MP3 is playing and showing down almost every hand, CO is loose/passive as are the blinds. Table is very loose with some nice pots being built mostly by MP3. Unfortunately, MP3 decides to fold for maybe the 2nd time tonight. Was counting on a least 1 raise from him (sigh) /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, between MP1, CO and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (19.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows As Kd (one pair, aces).
CO shows Qh 8h (two pair, queens and eights).
Hero shows 5c 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.25 BB. </font>

The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK allows me to hang in there and chase this pot which I would normally drop after the flop. I think the hand demonstrates the potential for small pocket pairs which a lot of people shy away from. MP3 was sadly missed at the river as this is where he would normally raise MP1's bet to try and force CO and Hero to fold. Had MP3 stayed, this hand had the the potential of a 30BB payoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn call seems pretty loose to me.

[exist]

i think the flop call is a little loose as you still have 3 people to act after you who might raise (and then the preflop raiser might 3-bet), but maybe implied odds can cushion this.

the turn call is bad. you have worse odds and less players and streets to take advantage of if you catch. i think you made the most you could possibly hope to make on the river and the turn call was still a -EV play.

[Joe Tall]

Preflop: Fine.

Flop: The call is razor thin you're getting 16.5:1 on a 22.5:1 shot. If you can get one caller behind you and no check-raise; your implied odds are good.. I'd make in on this board as set would be good to win and you are sure to gain enough bets considering the number of aggressive players.

Turn: You turn call is horrible. You will lose a lot of money like this when making this call without odds.

The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK allows me to hang in there and chase this pot which I would normally drop after the flop.

What?? Looks like the CO is a loose passive that likes to call. That is not a slow play.

I think the hand demonstrates the potential for small pocket pairs which a lot of people shy away from

It demostrates how they had potential and then be grossly overplayed.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[BigEndian]

n/m must drink coffee.

- Jim

[TxSteve]

i gotta agree with everyone...

you chased..and you caught..but that's about it

there's no way i'm seeing the turn (and certainly not the river) with this

[fluff]

Flop call is marginal, turn call is absolutely stupid.

[ QUOTE ]
The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK allows me to hang in there and chase this pot which I would normally drop after the flop. I think the hand demonstrates the potential for small pocket pairs which a lot of people shy away from.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, your fishy play and complete unawareness of pot odds is what allowed you to hang in there. This hand does not demonstrate the potential of small pairs, it demonstrates that you can suck out if you catch your two outer on the river. You were getting 10:1 on a 22:1 shot at the turn, and actually paying that is the true hallmark of a fish.

[Warik]

Great hand! I'd play the exact same way. In fact, I'd probably throw in a semi-bluff raise on the turn.

So... is DogRockets your name on Party......? /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[arkady]

lol, thats just mean Warik! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Joe Tall]

there's no way i'm seeing the turn (and certainly not the river) with this

You should conisder calling the flop as a set of 5s would likely be the best hand on the turn. You are getting 16.5:1 immediately and have two opponents, if another were to come and you turn your set, you'll easily make up the bets you are missing on the flop.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[TxSteve]

how do implied odds work when there is some uncertainty about whether your hand will be good if you hit it?

with an obvious calling station in the cut off (didn't raise with top two pair on the flop...and didn't raise with mid 2 pair on turn)...

as a side note..i may be wrong here..but he did his his set..and his implied odds never got there did they?

edit: don't want to come across as argumentative...
i don't fully understand the principle behind implied odds and am hoping to learn something

[pudley4]

I see everyone has (rightfully) criticized your turn call. Maybe this proof will show you why it's a bad call:

Odds against hitting your set on the river:
22-1

Final pot size (not including the 2 BB you put in on the river):
17.25BB

So for every 23 times you play this out, you'll hit once for a profit of 17.25 BB and miss 22 times for a loss of 22*1BB = 22BB. Your net result is -4.75BB or -.21BB/hand.

While this may not seem like much, a good player only wins an average of .03BB/hand, so you are giving away a lot by making this turn call.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
how do implied odds work when there is some uncertainty about whether your hand will be good if you hit it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to discount your implied odds. Depending on how often you hit, and how often you'll still lose (or be outdrawn) your implied odds may be completely ignored.

[ QUOTE ]


as a side note..i may be wrong here..but he did his his set..and his implied odds never got there did they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, and that's why this turn call was so poor.

[ QUOTE ]
edit: don't want to come across as argumentative...
i don't fully understand the principle behind implied odds and am hoping to learn something

[/ QUOTE ]

Implied odds are usually a gray area. You need to use your judgement on estimating how often you'll be paid off, and how many bets your opponents will be willing to put in.

[DogRockets]

Again, thanks for all the input here. I do know about pot and calling odds and I did say the small pairs are folded if not hit. As for the call on the flop... my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call. I did state that I had expected MP3 to add value to this pot and raise the implied odds. As for calling on the turn, I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well for me today and I made the 1BB call. Had there been a raise anywhere on the flop, or turn, I would have been out out it then. So all you folks play by straight pot odds? If that's the case, what screen names do you all use??? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the call on the flop... my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
That may be true. But if you're looking at it solely from a pot odds standpoint you should look at it one street at a time. In this case you may have had the odds (considering implied odds) to call the flop but you did not have the immediate odds to make either call.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well for me today

[/ QUOTE ]
OK then. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
So all you folks play by straight pot odds? If that's the case, what screen names do you all use???

[/ QUOTE ]
If that were the case there would be no debate about the flop call. It would have been clearly incorrect. With implied odds it was borderline.

[skunkworks]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, thanks for all the input here. I do know about pot and calling odds and I did say the small pairs are folded if not hit. As for the call on the flop... my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call. I did state that I had expected MP3 to add value to this pot and raise the implied odds. As for calling on the turn, I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well for me today and I made the 1BB call. Had there been a raise anywhere on the flop, or turn, I would have been out out it then. So all you folks play by straight pot odds? If that's the case, what screen names do you all use??? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If your odds of hitting the set are 10.88:1 on the turn or river, then you can't calculate your pot odds as being 16.5:1. You have to consider that you will call a big bet on the turn as well. You're better off considering that your pot odds on the flop are 16.5:1, and then once you peel one off on the turn you should recalculate your odds in big bets.

Either way, it's a horrible turn call if you felt you were behind. And yes, calculating pot odds is a much more reliable and profitable way to play poker compared to "the cards were running well" and other sorts of mysticism.

[Joe Tall]

my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call.

The 10.88 is correct for the turn AND river, not 'OR' river. You are percisely 22.5:1 for the turn and 22:1 for the river and you should use those odds accordingly.

I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well

Kill the leprechaun.

for me today and I made the 1BB call.

So you are willing to make the call just because it's 'one' BB eh? Don't think like this, many newbie's do. You are going to lose 96 hands out of a 100 in this exact same senario. Change the board so that a five coming off may improve someone's better than a set of fives and you'll be losing more than the 96. Now that 'one' BB everytime you make this call has cost you $500.

So all you folks play by straight pot odds?

Is there some other way to play? Please enlighten me.

If that's the case, what screen names do you all use???

If you wish to join me for a session, PM me and I'll meet up with you. I like the 15 game, if that's ok with you.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting about the turn bet you're going to have to call. You won't have 1/2 BB to call. It's going to be 1 1/2 by the time you see the 2nd card.

Implied odds are an important aspect of the game to understand, especially since there is no cookie-cutter way to measure them... but claiming "the implied odds were there!" to justify incorrect play when half the readers call you on it is... well... an incorrect play as well.

IF you are hell-bent on seeing the river, then the less INcorrect play would have been to raise the flop given your position and try to get yourself a free card on the turn. That would cost you only 1BB instead of 1 1/2 BB... of course, that wouldn't have worked either because the ace hit on the turn and AK would have bet it.

[ QUOTE ]
So all you folks play by straight pot odds? If that's the case, what screen names do you all use??? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh?

[ QUOTE ]
I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well for me today and I made the 1BB call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case, what screen name do YOU use? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BigEndian]

Dog, swallow the pride, realize you played this hand horribly and work on your game. If you don't understand that using pot-odds, effective odds and implied odds are cornerstone (not just a part of their game) to a successful poker player then you've come to the right place to learn.

A lot of people who start playing poker think it's a good deal about bluffing, bullying and catching the rushes. You would do well to read some of Mason's article (Poker Essays I, II and III for sale everywhere).

- Jim

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to bash you any more as you've clearly taken enough, but... How is it that MP1 "slowplayed"? He bet literally every opportunity he had, until your river raise.

[fluff]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the call on the flop... my odds for completing the set on the turn OR river with 2 outs are 10.88 to 1 and I'm getting 16.5 to 1 here with only 1/2BB to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were going All In, then yes you have 11:1 all the way to the river, since you don't need to put more bets in. As it were, you have to count the fact that if you miss on the turn, you have to put more money in as a huge underdog.

[ QUOTE ]
As for calling on the turn, I agree the odds were not there but the cards were running well for me today and I made the 1BB call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are routinely make bets paying 10:1 with 22:1 odds based on "I'm running good", you should switch to craps, or hell even Keno. The house advantage is much lower.

[BeerMoney]

Nice catch!!

[DogRockets]

Whip me, beat me, lay it on heavy. Thats what I need. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

But if you re-read the post, I do say I usually flop the set or drop it unless the odds are there to call after the flop. My PT stats show a win% of 41.68% with a +1.16BB/Hand return after 10K+ hands (572 pocket pair hands), WtSD 42.70% and W$SD 64.78%. These are from 22-AA so I do feel I play my pockets properly but not always expertly. Again, thanks for all the input and comments as each one has helped in its own way.

Funny you should bring up craps Fluff... it's the only casino game I play besides poker. I play the dark side and usually make some money with a method that hedges your loses but multiplies your wins, but not on 10-1 longshots. Strictly pass/don't , come/don't. It's a grind the same as cards. Maybe you would like some lessons there! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Lost Wages]

...craps...usually make some money with a method that hedges your loses but multiplies your wins

Yikes, you just don't get it. There is no betting system that will beat a game where every bet has a negative expectation. Shake the "playing the rushes" idea or you are going to be flamed to a cinder.

Lost Wages

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]


If that's the case, what screen names do you all use???

If you wish to join me for a session, PM me and I'll meet up with you. I like the 15 game, if that's ok with you.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

You slay me Joe...

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[fluff]

Oh wow. I take it all back.

I have no business telling someone who can beat Craps how to play pocket pairs. I'm clearly out of my league here.

[Yeknom58]

After 10k hands all you really know is squat. All you really know after 10k hands is that you're still pretty much a beginner and could be a losing player running really well. I mean over the past 6 months or so I have something like 30k hands and I would consider myself a very "liesure time" player. I'm sure all of the more serious players on the board must log at least 2-5 times that number of hands, especially the 4 table guys. Some of the more serious players clear 10k hands in like 2 weeks or less. Have any of those guys ran well for over 2 weeks..you better believe it.

And I love craps for what it is....a high action super fun LOSING casino game. Please explain to me what your little craps system is and why you NEVER EVER hear, "I play craps for a living."

Later,

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
...craps...usually make some money with a method that hedges your loses but multiplies your wins

Yikes, you just don't get it. There is no betting system that will beat a game where every bet has a negative expectation. Shake the "playing the rushes" idea or you are going to be flamed to a cinder.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been a lurker here for quite some time and there's a lot of good info posted here. Sometimes you just have to wade through the knee deep bull [censored] to get it. LW, are you saying people can't make money playing craps? I disagree with you and I'll leave it at that. I'll also agree that there is no magic "system" that will make you money in any casino game. I simply stated I used a method of hedging my bets to limit my loses while parlaying my wins into larger sums. And just as in cards, table selection plays an important of it. I wouldn't think to walk up to a table thats lined 3 deep with people shouting and cheering as they hit their numbers, and try to play "my game". But let me find a table that's quite, with people coming and going, and cursing the dice and I've found my spot. I can increase my chance of making money the way I play at one table or reduce it at the other. It's the same with cards.

As for "playing the rushes or a gut feeling"... I play less than 18% preflop and have been able to sustain a 4.16BB/100 rate @ 2/4 tables for over 10K+ hands since I've been tracking my play. But let one person on this forum tell me they have honestly never played a gut feeling in any game and I'll be the first to tell you he has brown eyes because he is full of [censored]! Poker is as much a game of lies as it is odds and the higher the stakes, the bigger the lies. Sell the lie and get paid off, get caught telling it and you'll pay it off. I'm 48 years old, been involved with gambling most of my life. Received subpenas to federal trials involving bookmakers, investigated by the IRS and I'm still walking the streets to talk about it. Low limit poker is no different than playing craps. The house has the edge in both and are the only guaranteed winner. You have to win enough in LL to overcome the rake, and BJ and craps are the only 2 casino games you have a snowballs chance in hell of beating. Let me amend that and add the +100% payback video poker games with perfect play.

So if you or anybody else feels the need to flame on, do so as I've had a hell of a lot worse than your flames licking at my ass over the years.

Cheers!

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


If that's the case, what screen names do you all use???

If you wish to join me for a session, PM me and I'll meet up with you. I like the 15 game, if that's ok with you.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]

You slay me Joe...

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PM me with the times you play, and your screen name Joe.. you just never know who might drop in and contribute to your game. I'll have to work on my bankroll a bit to play at those lofty levels. But I have hit the 3/6 and 5/10 with a bit of success. Who know's, it's only money, right? Besides I can always make another $ or $$ if you take it all.

[Yeknom58]

Ummm, I think you may have craps confused with another casino game. Everytime I've been at a craps table that's yelling and screaming, I'm making money hand over fist!!! You have to explain your little system so I can either laugh my ass off or cry a river for being so ignorant. Craps is played againsts the house so I don't see why you couldn't share. On a side note...about 10 minutes after you explain your system there'll probably be like 10 posts giving a mathematecial proof why you're wrong. And in all likely hood you are. I mean craps has a relatively small house edge so as long as you're not making any of the really bad bets you could go for like 10k rolls and still not see a really bad run. Hmmm 10k, I like that number.

Rush or no rush, your turn call was horrible.

As to why you seem to be getting such harsh responses....All I can say is you seem very resistant to outside ideas about you're play. If you didn't want advice, why in the world did you post that hand. I've seen this alot in all situations. You weren't looking for advice, you were looking for someone to tell you what you wanted to hear.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
After 10k hands all you really know is squat. All you really know after 10k hands is that you're still pretty much a beginner and could be a losing player running really well. I mean over the past 6 months or so I have something like 30k hands and I would consider myself a very "liesure time" player. I'm sure all of the more serious players on the board must log at least 2-5 times that number of hands, especially the 4 table guys. Some of the more serious players clear 10k hands in like 2 weeks or less. Have any of those guys ran well for over 2 weeks..you better believe it.

And I love craps for what it is....a high action super fun LOSING casino game. Please explain to me what your little craps system is and why you NEVER EVER hear, "I play craps for a living."

Later,

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you probably don't hear it because you are standing on the floors talking to them. My last 5 trips to AC, usually to Ballys or Ceasars, I see the same guys there each trip and I do talk to them. At least the ones who will talk to you. There's one guy who plays at Ballys who brings his own shooter with him. He never touches the dice and forget about talking to him. I know 4 guys there who do play for a living. I've stood on the casino floor for as long as 27hrs at a time grinding it out. I have had losing sessions, same as with cards, but overall have profited from my play. I can call the Taj, Sands, Ceasars or Ballys and get a room comped at will.

As far as those hand totals. Sure "multitable mechanics" are profitable at what they do. Playing only hands from 88, JTs up or whatever starting hand groups they choose to use. Do I consider them good players? I consider them good at what they do. They approach the game from a mechanical standpoint. Playing the +EV hands and increasing their hands/hr rate to hit more of them. I also consider them akin to a hunter who wouldn't go out on a pheasant hunt unless it was to a game farm where they threw the birds up in the air for them. As they would see a normal hunt as a -EV play. Some people enjoy the hunt while some just enjoy the kill. In actuallity they don't differ too much from the Winholdem bot that gets flamed here so often. It approaches the game from the same perspective, programmed play. So in reality, it is what they are trying to be. Multi-table, programmed poker playing robots. To each his own it what I say. If that's your game, play it to the max.

[balkii]

I can call the Taj, Sands, Ceasars or Ballys and get a room comped at will.

Do you understand WHY casinos give out comps? Do you realize that the whole point of giving up a little (the room, the buffet, whatever) is to gain a lot (when you gamble your roll away at the craps table)?

I'm sure the only reason why you are getting flamed is because you are holding out on us. Everyone here would like to know how to show a profit on a negative expectation wager.

[Ed Miller]

Do you understand WHY casinos give out comps? Do you realize that the whole point of giving up a little (the room, the buffet, whatever) is to gain a lot (when you gamble your roll away at the craps table)?

The fact that you are getting comped doesn't prove even remotely that you are taking the worst of it.

[Yeknom58]

Wow this makes total sense...If I play 3-4 tables at a time I'm a +EV player...But if I play 1 table at a time and give my total attention to that 1 table I'm a -EV player. This absolutely, positively, makes no sense. You need some serious help with your math. Let me ask you a simple probability question about roulette. If the last 8 spins landed on black...what should you bet on next and why???

If you're a winning player at 4 tables you had better believe you're a winning player at 1. Thats like saying someone who can lift 400lbs can't lift a 100lbs object. Poker is definitely a cumulative game...if you play more tables, it becomes more difficult, not the other way around. Also, saying multitable players are no better than the winholdem bot is going to get you some seriously negative responses. I'm willing to bet the "formula" that the multitable players use is infinitly more complex than the winholdem bot programming. That fact that you even think this exposes your ignorance on the game. If poker was so easily programmable then, these sites would be littered with bots that could crush the game as they are unaffected by sleep, tilt, whats on the TV, etc.

[Yeknom58]

"The fact that you are getting comped doesn't prove even remotely that you are taking the worst of it."

This is correct, but you know what he meant. You're just playing devil's advocate. If you plop down 100k in the poker room and begin to play the 1k-2k or if you play video poker every day, I doubt you get anything special in terms or comps...but if you plop down 100k at a craps table you had better believe that whole pit will know your favorite food, drink, and preferences (asian, blonde, brunette), your next flight out will be free, a car will be waiting, etc.

[Ed Miller]

If you plop down 100k in the poker room and begin to play the 1k-2k or if you play video poker every day, I doubt you get anything special in terms or comps...

If you play video poker daily with a $100k bankroll (say, playing $25 machines) you will be comped VERY nicely.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow this makes total sense...If I play 3-4 tables at a time I'm a +EV player...But if I play 1 table at a time and give my total attention to that 1 table I'm a -EV player. This absolutely, positively, makes no sense. You need some serious help with your math. Let me ask you a simple probability question about roulette. If the last 8 spins landed on black...what should you bet on next and why???

If you're a winning player at 4 tables you had better believe you're a winning player at 1. Thats like saying someone who can lift 400lbs can't lift a 100lbs object. Poker is definitely a cumulative game...if you play more tables, it becomes more difficult, not the other way around. Also, saying multitable players are no better than the winholdem bot is going to get you some seriously negative responses. I'm willing to bet the "formula" that the multitable players use is infinitly more complex than the winholdem bot programming. That fact that you even think this exposes your ignorance on the game. If poker was so easily programmable then, these sites would be littered with bots that could crush the game as they are unaffected by sleep, tilt, whats on the TV, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to re-read it... I stated they are good at what they do, which is waiting for the +EV hands and playing them. Multitables allow for more hands/hr therefore more +EV plays. Playing +EV hands on single tables are no different, the only difference is in the number of +EV plays per hour. It doesn't take a poker genius to click fold 85%of the time and either call, bet or raise the other 15% each hour. On single tables, your BB/100 will be higer and on multis, your BB/100 will be lower but your $/hr will be higher. Simple math for simple folks. This is what makes poker such a good game, just as in these posts, I say one thing and you see something different from what was said. The game of poker is seen differently through many eyes. And in each persons eyes, their vision of the game is correct. And it certainly can be. Profitable play comes in many forms.

On your probability question... 1st off, you would never see me at a roulette table but the previous results have no bearing whatsoever on the next outcome. The odds are the same for red or black showing as they were on each of the previous results. So they are totally different if the bet was for black on 9 consecutive results. But jesus, if I had that "gut feeling", I'd put the house and my left nut on RED! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I feel my BB/100 rate is high is due to the fact I have been playing single tables and "stalking" the players I choose to play against. Consider this, would you choose to play 4 tables vs 2+2ers or 1 table with some well know fish? That answer is easy for me. Sometimes I'll play 2 if they look good. Sometimes, I'll even change accounts when they start table hopping. It's all in how you play your game. I'm comfortable playing my game and I hope you are at yours.

If as you state that the bots can't play a good game then it is due to the fact that the game is not played by odds alone. They can play a perfect odds game so I guess that proves that the odds play a large part but odds alone do not win the hands. It's the reasoning that we have that still gives us the edge.

[BottlesOf]

UTG+1,UTG+2 &amp; MP1 are typical solid players

Your table selection sucks. I don't think I've ever been at a 2/4 Party table with 3 opponents I would classify as "solid players."

[BottlesOf]

I stated they are good at what they do, which is waiting for the +EV hands and playing them. Multitables allow for more hands/hr therefore more +EV plays. Playing +EV hands on single tables are no different, the only difference is in the number of +EV plays per hour.

So what are you saying? You are good at playing -EV hands? Shopping around for tables filled with fish IS a +EV move. You may be able to get away with playing more hands, but these hands become +EV in that situation. No hand exists in a vaccum. However, there is absolutely no way that playing hands that are -EV in whatever situation they are -EV will make you money. Sure, maybe occasionally, but not in the long run. This is either an issue of semantics where you and the other posters are just talking past each other, or you're crazy. Time will tell.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand WHY casinos give out comps? Do you realize that the whole point of giving up a little (the room, the buffet, whatever) is to gain a lot (when you gamble your roll away at the craps table)?

The fact that you are getting comped doesn't prove even remotely that you are taking the worst of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You folks will jump on anything. I'm sure I understand it better than you do. Ok consider this, how would you like an all expenses, limo driven trip to AC? Maybe a few friends to keep you company? Boxing tickets? Sure, no prob! UFC tickets? You bet! It's simple, all ya gotta do is post up XXK at the casino cashier and agree to play through it 4 times. I'll take care of everything else for ya! Get the idea yet? I never said I went alone but I did say I have been involved with gambling for many years. The county in the state I live has the highest proportion of millionairs in the state. And I know many of the "gamblers". As I said, I stalk the fish at the tables online as well as elsewhere, as I've always done. I don't get the comps for my play. I do believe I'm getting the +EV play here!

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1,UTG+2 &amp; MP1 are typical solid players

Your table selection sucks. I don't think I've ever been at a 2/4 Party table with 3 opponents I would classify as "solid players."

[/ QUOTE ]

Table selection was great, tripled up on this table. Table textures change all the time. With fish busting out, chairs are filled. At times there have been as many as 5 players who I consider rocks at a table. Generally they will leave soon after coming in and seeing who was there or I leave for another. This is one hand. Continue your flames, please.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
I stated they are good at what they do, which is waiting for the +EV hands and playing them. Multitables allow for more hands/hr therefore more +EV plays. Playing +EV hands on single tables are no different, the only difference is in the number of +EV plays per hour.

So what are you saying? You are good at playing -EV hands? Shopping around for tables filled with fish IS a +EV move. You may be able to get away with playing more hands, but these hands become +EV in that situation. No hand exists in a vaccum. However, there is absolutely no way that playing hands that are -EV in whatever situation they are -EV will make you money. Sure, maybe occasionally, but not in the long run. This is either an issue of semantics where you and the other posters are just talking past each other, or you're crazy. Time will tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

What didn't you understand? I said I play 18% preflop. I said pocket pairs are profitable for me, from 22-AA. I didn't say anything about being profitable playing -EV hands. So mabye I forgot about a post I made earlier. Maybe you could quote this for me, or maybe I'm not the only crazy one here. Time surely will tell.

[BottlesOf]

I'm not flaming, I was just trying to help in a slightly snide manner. While the presence of 3 solid players doesn't say for certain the table was poor, it seems to point to that, and I just wanted to suggest that to you.

Also, the fact that you tripled up doesn't really prove anything about the table selection.

[BottlesOf]

I stated they are good at what they do, which is waiting for the +EV hands and playing them.

This is a quote from a post of yours. You are saying that "they" are good at waiting for only +EV hands to play them. This implies that 1) you are not one of those people and 2) you don't just "wait" for +EV hands, but are willing to make some -EV decisions, like your turn call in the above posted hand. I am saying that this strategy is not a good one.

If I've misunderstood something, please point it out.

[Homer]

Well you probably don't hear it because you are standing on the floors talking to them. My last 5 trips to AC, usually to Ballys or Ceasars, I see the same guys there each trip and I do talk to them. At least the ones who will talk to you. There's one guy who plays at Ballys who brings his own shooter with him. He never touches the dice and forget about talking to him. I know 4 guys there who do play for a living. I've stood on the casino floor for as long as 27hrs at a time grinding it out. I have had losing sessions, same as with cards, but overall have profited from my play. I can call the Taj, Sands, Ceasars or Ballys and get a room comped at will.

So, which is it, are you winning because you are betting with known sharpshooters or because you are hedging your bets?

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I think you may have craps confused with another casino game. Everytime I've been at a craps table that's yelling and screaming, I'm making money hand over fist!!! You have to explain your little system so I can either laugh my ass off or cry a river for being so ignorant. Craps is played againsts the house so I don't see why you couldn't share. On a side note...about 10 minutes after you explain your system there'll probably be like 10 posts giving a mathematecial proof why you're wrong. And in all likely hood you are. I mean craps has a relatively small house edge so as long as you're not making any of the really bad bets you could go for like 10k rolls and still not see a really bad run. Hmmm 10k, I like that number.

Rush or no rush, your turn call was horrible.

As to why you seem to be getting such harsh responses....All I can say is you seem very resistant to outside ideas about you're play. If you didn't want advice, why in the world did you post that hand. I've seen this alot in all situations. You weren't looking for advice, you were looking for someone to tell you what you wanted to hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok... again, go back and read the part about table selection. I play the dark side which is don't pass/don't come. So when people are hitting the numbers at a table and cheering, it would be because they are playing pass/come and making the ponts, getting paid for it. It's the wrong table texture. Same as nobody here wants wants to sit at a table with more 2+2ers. The game of craps is played against the dice, not the casino. The casino is just the host taking their rake. The rake is smallest on the passline bets. ALL the bets are -EV at every game in the casino except for +100% payback video poker. I need a cold table where people are establishing their point, throwing the dice 4-5 times and hitting a 7. I get paid when the 7 hits. Many times its a multipay as I will have several don't pass/don't come bets on the table when the 7 hits. For you to win three bets on 3 points, you have to roll each point number twice before the 7 shows. I only need a 7 to show to collect all three bets on one roll. My bets are hedged on the come out and are increased by a set ratio as more points are established. Established bets with odds on the table are hedges for the next don't come bet. Hedging the bets keeps my loses small while points are hit and maximizes my return when the dice go cold. Any money won on craps with don't come bets are parlayed into the next don't come roll. I play against the dice and look for the silent, cold tables. As with cards, there are deviations in the dice. The method takes advantage when the seven shows more than it should. Those loud tables you like are ones that the dice have went the other way and Big Red isn't making his shows enough.

I could care less about the "harsh treatment". I have posted thanks in many of these post for the input, no matter what it may be. I've never said it was a +EV play, what I said it was is how I played the hand and why I played it that way. At no time have I been resistant to outside ideas, but I have defended my position here and will continue to do so against yours and other sarcastic and attacking replies. That said, I'd be glad to tell you how I play if you are serious about learning the method. I would suggest you download a shareware program called Wincraps, a simulator and test it. Under the right conditions, it is very profitable. A friend of mine was going out to Vegas last month and I worked with him for about a week on it before he left. He had never played craps before. He came home with about 1673.00 playing a base bet of 5.00 He was happy.

Cheers!

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
I stated they are good at what they do, which is waiting for the +EV hands and playing them.

This is a quote from a post of yours. You are saying that "they" are good at waiting for only +EV hands to play them. This implies that 1) you are not one of those people and 2) you don't just "wait" for +EV hands, but are willing to make some -EV decisions, like your turn call in the above posted hand. I am saying that this strategy is not a good one.

If I've misunderstood something, please point it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well lets see. I've stated I play 18% preflop which are all +EV. I play 1-2 tables and my BB/100 reflect this. And most of my posts here are about several well know fish. So I'll go on the record here and state that "Yes, I will make a -EV play vs certain people I seek out because they become +EV plays in these situations." I have also stated several times that I was expecting generous participation from a known fish in this hand. Does that make it clear to you?

I will also say I think people who play less tables get better reads on table texture and players than people who play 4 tables. Generally. I will also say there are probably some players who are very good at playing 4 tables and can read them as well as 1, but they would probably in the upper 5% of all players. As stated several times, I usually fold the pairs if not hit on the flop and my pocket pair play is profitable from 22-AA. Now is there any other sentance of any of the previous post that you would like to surgically disect and look for a flaw to attack me on?

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you probably don't hear it because you are standing on the floors talking to them. My last 5 trips to AC, usually to Ballys or Ceasars, I see the same guys there each trip and I do talk to them. At least the ones who will talk to you. There's one guy who plays at Ballys who brings his own shooter with him. He never touches the dice and forget about talking to him. I know 4 guys there who do play for a living. I've stood on the casino floor for as long as 27hrs at a time grinding it out. I have had losing sessions, same as with cards, but overall have profited from my play. I can call the Taj, Sands, Ceasars or Ballys and get a room comped at will.

So, which is it, are you winning because you are betting with known sharpshooters or because you are hedging your bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

The comps come from the players I bring along. The profits come from my wagers. I play only the don't pass/don't come while my friends will play both sides. As I say, they do it for a living, not me. Hedging keeps the loses low till the dice turn right. Then the profits are maximized.

[DogRockets]

Gee! You guys really are good. While I've enjoyed this discussion, WHO DA HELL HAS BEEN MILKING MY FISH! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[BottlesOf]

I basically agree with what you said here. But dude, I'm not attacking you, I just wanted to make you aware of what might have been a flaw in your thinking about the game.

They only reason I "surgically dissected" one sentence is because you didn't understand the point I was making when I quoted a whole paragraph, so I decided to really get to the heart of the matter with one sentence, so you would understand what I was saying.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
I basically agree with what you said here. But dude, I'm not attacking you, I just wanted to make you aware of what might have been a flaw in your thinking about the game.

They only reason I "surgically dissected" one sentence is because you didn't understand the point I was making when I quoted a whole paragraph, so I decided to really get to the heart of the matter with one sentence, so you would understand what I was saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. My whole point being, I don't normally make that play. It was a 1 bet call, and had there been a raise anywhere after the flop, I'm totally gone. I was expecting a much larger pot knowing who was in the hand, but for 1 bet decided to see the river. Well, lucky me! Just hit a scratch off lottery ticket for almost 20BB!

I've noticed it over and over here that when a new person begins posting, there's like a hazing ritual they go through. The post become more personal than informational and I will defend. That said, I've no hard feeling towards you or anybody here. And once again, thanks for ALL the input. Wish you and everybody luck at the tables, even if you feel you don't need it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[BeerMoney]

Please tell us.

[LondonBroil]

[ QUOTE ]
As for "playing the rushes or a gut feeling"... I play less than 18% preflop and have been able to sustain a 4.16BB/100 rate @ 2/4 tables for over 10K+ hands since I've been tracking my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever I see numbers like these from someone who plays presto like that, I get the feeling that that person is "forgetting" to import some of their losing sessions into their pokertracker database.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for "playing the rushes or a gut feeling"... I play less than 18% preflop and have been able to sustain a 4.16BB/100 rate @ 2/4 tables for over 10K+ hands since I've been tracking my play.

[/ QUOTE ]


Whenever I see numbers like these from someone who plays presto like that, I get the feeling that that person is "forgetting" to import some of their losing sessions into their pokertracker database.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pocket QQ's 5 times on 5/16/04... 0 for 5 and they are all there. Good or bad, the sessions are auto requested and imported. Flop came up 3 suited 3 times with neither of my ladies invited to the party. What a horror show, lost one with a set to the fish when he made his set of A's on the river. But the stats are for my use so why pad them? Oh well, maybe I better go edit some hand histories then convert them and upload to show how much I've improved. Who says it can't be done so fast. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]

Please tell us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey BeerMoney... I've got 8000 players in the db but I don't see ya in there... pm what you go by and I'll stop by and say hello. You will know if I'm at your table. Promise, scouts honor. There are 6 accounts that I can play under, 3 on Empire, 3 on Party and with a new laptop on the way, probably another on Multi or Coral. Can't use Interops as I had forgotten about an old sportsbook account I had there and opened a second account to play cards with. I play almost exclusively 2/4 but do step up and hit some 3/6, 5/10 tables.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
lost one with a set to the fish when he made his set of A's on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

You bemoan a loss with QQ vs. AA when AA makes a set on the river yet you applaud your own play with 55 in the above hand?

Hyprocisy is funny.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lost one with a set to the fish when he made his set of A's on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

You bemoan a loss with QQ vs. AA when AA makes a set on the river yet you applaud your own play with 55 in the above hand?

Hyprocisy is funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, another one who see's this post as applauding my play. I bemoan every loss that I have a made hand and lose it on the river but I take them as part of the game and move on. The post on the QQ's was in reply to the poster saying that I "forget" to import losing sessions. Kinda funny when I never know know if a session is gonna be a loser or a winner until I close it out. I can guarantee you that in my db, there are many more times I've had a flopped set beat on the river than I've sucked a set out on the river. Next please...

[MarkD]

I understand completely the context of the post you made that I took the quote from but throughout this thread you have disregarded advice from very good players and in general one can only conclude that you believe you played this hand correctly.

Granted, I haven't read every post in this thread but this is the feeling I get. It also seems you don't believe in pot odds and like to call everyone fish or losers. It's funny because I'm sure in the hand where AA beat your QQ that if you held AA you would have also sucked out on your opponent if he had QQ (and you would feel as if you played it correctly), yet you feel the need to call this player a fish.

I just find your funny. Your lack of respect, outright hypricrosy, ignorance towards fundamental poker concepts, stubborness to admit the falacy in your thought process are all kind of funny to me.

That's all. Next please. :P

[adanthar]

Don't mind me. I'll just be in this corner trying to figure out how anyone can play a -EV game for a living.

Wait, I know. You're friends with that 'put everything he owns on red' guy, right?

[DogRockets]

I understand completely the context of the post you made that I took the quote from but throughout this thread you have disregarded advice from very good players and in general one can only conclude that you believe you played this hand correctly.

I don't think you really do understand and that you need to read some more. I have stated I played the hand as it was and the reason I played it. Play of this hand was expected to bring a much larger pot based on the people at the table. I have never stated I played the hand correctly, I have stated I don't normally play pockets in this manner. I have not disregarded the advice as given and have thanked the posters for their insight. But your conclusions are yours and you are welcomed to them.

Granted, I haven't read every post in this thread but this is the feeling I get. It also seems you don't believe in pot odds and like to call everyone fish or losers. It's funny because I'm sure in the hand where AA beat your QQ that if you held AA you would have also sucked out on your opponent if he had QQ (and you would feel as if you played it correctly), yet you feel the need to call this player a fish.

Every hand I posted involved this player. I know him well and follow him from table to table anytime he is online. He will give away 300-500 a session. I have over 1000 of his hand histories and his VP$IP is 93.75%. Maybe this guy represents something different to you, but a fish is a fish is a fish, and he's in one of the biggest I've seen online. Had I had the AA in the hand I lost the set of Q's with, I would have played it the same. But he would play the hand the same if he had A high or small pair. I know him well as he has just paid for about half of my new laptop this week alone. Hell, he's not a fish, he's Moby Dick's big brother!! What amazes me is your ability to read people after one hand post... that's some skill brother!

I just find your funny. Your lack of respect, outright hypricrosy, ignorance towards fundamental poker concepts, stubborness to admit the falacy in your thought process are all kind of funny to me.

I'm glad you were able to find something that amused you here. At least the post has generated a lot of intrest and I have greatly enjoyed the discussion. And Mark, go back and read the replies about the personal attacks, seems like to missed those too. I feel all of my replies have shown the posters more respect than you have shown me, and that's my conclusion. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I play against the dice and look for the silent, cold tables. As with cards, there are deviations in the dice. The method takes advantage when the seven shows more than it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Streaks only happen in the past. They cannot be predicted.

[Joe Tall]

All these posters here are just trying to pull you out of the mud puddle as you seem to be growing legs.

Once you listen you may lose the tail and walk among us.

Again, welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[AviD]

This ranks as one of the most amusing threads I've read to date.

Especially...

[ QUOTE ]
The slowplay by the CO with 2 pair and MP1 with TPTK allows me to hang in there and chase this pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised Dynasty, Vehn, Clark, and Ed haven't chimed in laying it on thick!

[Louie Landale]

Of the 19.5bb pot you invested 5.5 so you won 14bb. You need 22:1 to draw to your 2 outer on the turn. You LOST a great deal of money on the turn, even counting your implied odds, so CO's slow-play did quite well against the loose Button.

Yes, "magic" is correct. Don't count on it.

- Louie

[CORed]

Interesting: When you answered the the roulette question, you stated that prior results don't effect the probability of future outcomes. Yet, you made a negative ev call on the 5's because you were "running good" and you look for craps tables where people haven't been making their numbers. You seem to know intellectually that the prior results don't affect the probability of future outcomes, but you persist in playing as if they did.

[BaronVonCP]

There is nothing personal about a bad turn call.

Its just 1 BB. And look I got lucky. All everyone is saying is that you will ose money on these turn calls if you keep making them. YOu cannot argue with that.

[BaronVonCP]

If you play any game with a house edge you will feel the love.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting: When you answered the the roulette question, you stated that prior results don't effect the probability of future outcomes. Yet, you made a negative ev call on the 5's because you were "running good" and you look for craps tables where people haven't been making their numbers. You seem to know intellectually that the prior results don't affect the probability of future outcomes, but you persist in playing as if they did.

[/ QUOTE ]

CORed, there are deviations in all odds outcomes. I seem to be in one of those on my QQ hands as I have not won with pocket QQ the last 10 times it's been dealt to me. Although QQ is a +EV play, it has shown a very negative return these last ten hands. Over the long run, these deviations tend to smooth out and return to the norn. But there are deviations. When flipping a coin, it does not always land h-t-h-t-h-t but the chance of a head or tail showing is the same each toss. Craps is a -EV game in general but the house has a very small edge on passline bets. A passline bet with double odds leaves the house with a +0.61 edge, 50.61% vs my 49.39%. The casinos I play offer up to 10 times your initial bet on the odds, which if taken, reduces the house edge to an even smaller number, almost 50-50. When you find a "hot" table or a "hot" shooter, it is because of a deviation in the outcome of the dice roll. The 7 is not showing on the rolls as often as it should. A small deviation in the appearance of a 7 has a very large effect on the game of craps. I would never head to a "hot" table where this deviation appears to be occurring to try and play my game as I only play don't pass bets. Most people who play craps tend to be pass or come bettors so the table selection is easy. Few people and silent is a good choice, lots of people and rowdy, poor choice. Every person on this site makes the same choice when choosing which tables to sit in on when they play cards to increase their odds of having a winning session. I can neither predict when or where a deviation will happen, I can only try to minimize my loses until they do, and maximize my gains during the deviation. Again, note that I have stated that I normally do not make this play with pocket pairs. The pot did not build as I had expected it would and it was played as it was vs the known people in the hand. Maybe this has helped you understand why although I seem to understand basics of probabilities, I don't always follow the rules of them. But then again, maybe not.

Cheers! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing personal about a bad turn call.

Its just 1 BB. And look I got lucky. All everyone is saying is that you will ose money on these turn calls if you keep making them. YOu cannot argue with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Baron, I have never argued against this fact. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BaronVonCP]

Yes. Deviation does exist. Hot streaks do exist. Howver you cannot predict what is going to happen next. If you find your quiet table of pass line losers, it does not mean that you are going to clean up with your don't pass bets. It can turn around. Each roll is independant of the roll before it as you know. The hot streak will end sometime and you can never know when. Cards, craps, roulette.

[BaronVonCP]

Why is this thread so long then. Play was fine. Except for the turn call. Which was bad.

Next hand.

[BaronVonCP]

If someone raising will knock out a hand that would normally call drawing very thin, they are usually correct to slowplay.

[BaronVonCP]

My party handle is MaxCola. Look me up. Imagine the amount of info you will have knowing that I base all my decisions on odds and pot size.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play any game with a house edge you will feel the love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having cashed numerous checks from offshore books, several in the mid to upper 5 figures, I do respectfully disagree with you here. There are 4 bets at a craps table that are +EV every time they are made. Also, let me add that there are break even bets that the house has a 0% edge on you... Which odds wizard out there can tell what they are? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
My party handle is MaxCola. Look me up. Imagine the amount of info you will have knowing that I base all my decisions on odds and pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have sat in a few games with you Baron... at least thats what the db says. You show a profit at those tables as do I. I will say hello the next time at a sit down with you. You still playing the 1/2 or upper now?

DR

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play any game with a house edge you will feel the love.

[/ QUOTE ]

You responded to a video poker comment, and I assume you're saying video poker is -EV, which in most cases, is not true at all.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
You responded to a video poker comment, and I assume you're saying video poker is -EV, which in most cases, is not true at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree here. Although some full pay machines (e.g. 10 7 Double Bonus and Full Pay Deuces) are +EV with correct playing strategy, and a few more (e.g. 9/6 Jacks or Better) have a small enough house edge to make them +EV when slot club cash back and comps are included, the vast majority of video poker machines you will find in casinos are negative EV. The vast majority of video poker players play badly enough to have negative EV even on the small percentage of +EV machines.

[BaronVonCP]

I can bee found anywhere from .50/1 to 5/10. My bankroll is all over the place because I use winnings to buy stuff.

[BaronVonCP]

Why wouldn't you only make the always + EV bets?

The only break even bets I know are the odds bets on the pass/don't pass.

[DogRockets]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't you only make the always + EV bets?

The only break even bets I know are the odds bets on the pass/don't pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

The break even bets are usually there all the time and you are half right on the odds bet. You get straight odds on your added bet but your overall passline+odds bet still gives the house an edge because you are getting less than true odds on your passline wager. It can approach 50/50 but never reach it, even at a level of 100x for the odds.

You can make straight odds bets with nothing on the passline. All you have to do is strike up a friendly conversation with one of the "older folk" who regularly bus into the casinos. Help them with the game a bit as most are confused as to what to do. And a great number of them will not take those odds bets after the point is made. This opens the door for you. They will be glad to let you make those wagers and you should. You are getting the even money wager on their passline bet. This works best at casinos that offer 10x-100x on the odds as Granny usually makes a small PL bet. If you are a really nice guy, let her make a small odds wager then piggy-back it up to your comfort level. She will be so happy! And you've got a break-even bet on the board. The +EV bets can't be made every toss and thats why you can't just play them alone. There are situations that need to be met before they are "live".

These are 2 of the ways that people who do this for a living can swing a very small house edge to a very small player edge.

Think of this situation and see if you can come up with the +EV plays. I'll give you a hint, the +EV plays almost always come up on the fast and hot tables, hardly ever on the cold ones that I like.

These are the only 2 bets I will make on these crowded tables if I can't find a stone cold slab of marble to play my game.

[DogRockets]

I've created a post in the General Gambling - Internet area to continue the discussion on craps, vidio poker if anybody is interested. I've already cluttered this one with topics that don't belong here.

[Vehn]

frankly I only show up in SS nowadays when I search for my name and see someone summon^H^H^H^H^H^Hmention me.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

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While this may not seem like much, a good player only wins an average of .03BB/hand, so you are giving away a lot by making this turn call.

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WhooooHooooo!!!! /images/graemlins/cool.gifI'm earning .04BB/hand /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I also would not have called the turn and probably would have folded the flop as well, partially because I multitable and generally get no reads other than PT exported notes and maniacs.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Why not share your Party/Empire name here?