Am I Leaking?

[Haupt_234]

Typical play at a typical table?



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 5.75 BB, won by MP1.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by MP1.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP1 wins 6.75 BB. </font>

Haupt_234

[Chaos_ult]

I don't think you can call on the turn. The flop bet was standard (since you raised preflop), but I think checking/folding the turn is correct. You need 7-1 odds to chase overcards.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
You need 7-1 odds to chase overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget he has a gutshot, too.

I play it the same.

[LAGmaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can call on the turn. The flop bet was standard (since you raised preflop), but I think checking/folding the turn is correct. You need 7-1 odds to chase overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

He has more like 5 to 1 because of the gutshot, I think it's worth a call, but betting may be better.

[FletchJr.]

I disagree. he's got a 4 outer to the straight which is going to happen one out of 11 times. If he makes it he can assume he gets a c/r on the river, which actually makes the turn odds 9 to 1. Not only that he's got 2 overcards which adds up to 6 outs assuming they're all good. He's only up against 1 player also. and IMO he should of bet the turn, called a raise, and folded the river if he didn't improve.
raising with Qko then betting that flop and check folding on the turn really looks like weak poker to me.

[Chaos_ult]

Erm, totally overlooked the gutshot.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

[Kluddeludde]

I was going to post, but you summed it up pretty well. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kludde

[Randy Burgess]

... and here's why: It creates a long-term problem, not just for this hand.

Much of the time you raise it's going to be with overcards. If a good opponent is watching you and realizes that you are going to check a missed turn even when you're headup, all they have to do from now on is automatically call your flop bet, no matter what they have, to see what you'll do on the turn. If you check as you did, in many cases they're betting no matter what they hold, knowing you might call the turn with just overcards but will surely fold the river. This is especially true if small cards hit.

In three-way or head-up play you must vary your actions more to avoid getting read this easily. In this case you ample value to call a turn bet, so you should have bet the turn yourself to reduce the chances of him steal-betting the river.

If you have trouble in this area, head over to a short-handed table and get some practice.

[RED_RAIN]

I wouldn't preflop raise UTG+1 with KQo muchless even KQs.

[Rico Suave]

Red Rain:

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't preflop raise UTG+1 with KQo muchless even KQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should consider doing so, especially with KQs.

--Rico

[josie_wales]

Hey,

I see this as a puny pot and I am out. A little bigger of a pot. A few more outs....I play it, but in this case you are chasing over cards anda gutshot. There is a chance that the heart versions of those aren't clean. Bail.

JW

[DonWaade]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't preflop raise UTG+1 with KQo muchless even KQs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree

[PokerBob]

I think this is a dangerous hand from UTG+1. Who is going to call your raise? I think once you do this, you have to bet it the whole way until you are raised. You showed strength PF, now fake it. I can't tell you how many times I've raised PF with AQ or AK and bet it unimproved the whole way and had people call, call, fold the river. If it gets shown down and you lose, use it as advertising and tighten up. Hoepfully you'll get action when you have a REAL hand.

[Trix]

If you want to see the river, then you are much better off betting the turn.

[Haupt_234]

I guess I just have to start betting it to the river now, as I have done on occassion. I usually do just that when I have position, but since I did not have position on this hand I felt it would be the better option to check the turn.

This could also be set up for a checkraise on the river if I hit my K, Q, or 10.

My standard play in this situation is check the turn if I am out of position but bet it if I have position. Of course I mix it up a bit, but wouldn't this strategy make sense?

Haupt_234

[sfer]

Heads-up Trix is 100% right. Also, calling a single flop bet doesn't mean your opponent has anything.

I wouldn't plan on trying to set up a river checkraise for the reasons Randy laid out. Smarter opponents will autobet here when you check to them assuming you missed with AK/AQ etc. but won't bet the river for you. I like checking better with position because it guarantees you a free river card and you don't risk a free showdown if you hit your overcard.

[Haupt_234]

So lets say I bet out the turn and am called again. The river card comes a blank. Do I bet out with my K high and hope my opponent missed an overcard draw, also risking a call from AK/AQ (happens sometimes in 2/4)?

Or do I check the river, putting me in the same situation as before where someone will autobet and I am forced to fold?

Haupt_234

[sfer]

Usually, I check/fold. With AK, I will mix up check/calling, betting, check/folding. But if there's any chance he folds to your turn bet than Trix's line is an improvement over check/calling the turn.

[Bob T.]

I wouldn't preflop raise UTG+1 with KQo muchless even KQs.

I would.

[Bob T.]

You are, but not because of the play of this hand. A turn bet, or check are both possibly the correct play. Your most frequent opponents, are the players to your immediate right, and the two to your immediate left. If you don't know enough about these two players, to make the decision about whether a turn bet is correct against them, you are leaking.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

So lets say I bet out the turn and am called again. The river card comes a blank. Do I bet out with my K high and hope my opponent missed an overcard draw, also risking a call from AK/AQ (happens sometimes in 2/4)?

Or do I check the river, putting me in the same situation as before where someone will autobet and I am forced to fold?



What does your opponent coldcall with. What does he take on off on the flop with. Does he call the river if he called the turn?

Sorry, have to go now. But there are a lot of similar questions that if you have the answer to, you can easily decide the correct turn and river plays.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[slavic]

you give up too much information / value if you don't do this from time to time.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a dangerous hand from UTG+1. Who is going to call your raise? I think once you do this, you have to bet it the whole way until you are raised. You showed strength PF, now fake it. I can't tell you how many times I've raised PF with AQ or AK and bet it unimproved the whole way and had people call, call, fold the river. If it gets shown down and you lose, use it as advertising and tighten up. Hoepfully you'll get action when you have a REAL hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually bet flop and turn when I am missing my AK or what not. But if I have position after a bet on the flop, I'll raise hoping for a free card. If I have 2 callers to the river or someone who I don't think will drop to another bet on the river, I just check/fold since I don't want to be raised and I won't call a bet anyway.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't preflop raise UTG+1 with KQo muchless even KQs.

I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was reading another thread that a lot of people were saying KQo wants to be against a few people so you should raise UTG and UTG+1 with this hand preflop. Can you explain to why you would raise here? I just wonder who would call you. In this position I would rather be in for just one and a possible raise from behind. What if someone 3 bets you from behind, you don't have position, and/or you could easily have a dominated hand to callers or 3 betters with AK or AQ.

[Bob T.]

The most likely hand that you will make with KQo is one pair. One pair hands are more likely to win against a small field than against a big field. When you have the suited version, the ability to either make a flush, or the value of your backdoor draws, make it so the hand is much more tolerable to multiway action.

You're right, it isn't good news when you get threebet, or even get coldcallers behind you when you open raise with this hand, but I think it is too big of a hand to fold, and I think it does play better after a raise than after a limp.

Also, if you are too tight with your open raising requirements, you will be wondering why when you open raise AA, you are suddenly winning the blinds uncontested. There should be a little doubt in your opponents minds about what you holding when you open raise. It certainly isn't a disaster when you win the blinds by openraising KQo UTG.

In my experience, if you bet or raise alot, most of the time with real values /images/graemlins/grin.gif, your opponents actually seem to become more passive, predictable, and readable. This hand might not be worth a raise in this position, but it is at least in the grey area, and I usually choose to play more aggressively in the grey area. The more opportunities I get to raise, it seems that the percentage of pots I win preflop, and on the flop goes up, because people don't want to tangle with me unless they have clearcut values.

Finally, in my opinion, a lot of the theory of holdem got developed from how nolimit holdem was played. I think in a nolimit game, KQo is a complete piece of trash in EP. It isn't as bad in limit, because it is very expensive to play if you end up in a dominated situation, but if you play well, you can escape a lot cheaper in a limit game, and your redraws if you are behind are also a lot less expensive, and you will have closer to the odds necessary to chase them, so you won't be making as big a mistake if you do.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
What if someone 3 bets you from behind, you don't have position, and/or you could easily have a dominated hand to callers or 3 betters with AK or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of raising hands don't give you warm fuzzy feelings when there's a 3-bet behind you, and AQ is one of them. I don't think, however, that fear of a 3-bet is a good argument for not raising.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain to why you would raise here? I just wonder who would call you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is party poker low limit 2/4. Not everyone has certain tight preflop-calling guidelines like us knowledgable players. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Haupt_234