Did I play this well ?

[Trix]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.66 BB

[Rico Suave]

Hey Trix:

Played fine, if UTG is reasonable.

--Rico

[Joe Tall]

No reads, seems fine.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Saborion]

So why can't hero have the best hand?
Why not bet the turn, fold to a c/r, trying to go for a free showdown? Because people at 3/6 and above generally bet the river with their pair of aces?
The pot is too small?

I'd bet here, but apparently it's not the right thing to do?

[JTG51]

I'd bet the turn most of the time too.

I'd only check the turn if I either had a really good read on the opponent or if I planned to call a river bet.

[Saborion]

Against an habitual bluffer, would you check the turn and call the river bet?

[Trix]

The only hand that I can beat that I can see him calling the flop with is KdQd and I dont think he will have that often enough...

[arkady]

if this worries you even one bit, all you have to do is ask what can UTG have. Unless you dont have a read on him raising UTG with random garbage, its a safe lay down.

You could be up against TT, KQ, 99 - all possible UTG raises. But you could also be up against AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KJ, KK, JJ - so um, i think you are beat 1 out of every 2+ times here.

Although he did play the hand strangely, I almost inclined to believe he had TT/99....oh well, not to worry.

[BaronVonCP]

I don't like it. Bet the turn and check the river. Or check the turn and call the river.

Unless you know the opponent will only call the flop with top pair, and will never bet without a hand that beats you.

[jek187]

Feel blessed, I somehow wandered out of the Zoo and into the SS forum.

The hand is played fine, except for the river fold which is awful. This is a Party 3/6 UTG raiser. He's not just going to have AA-JJ, AK, AQ he'll often times have the additional hands:
AJ, ATs (ok, these are bad too)
TT-77
KQ, KJ suited or unsuited (KQdd obviously the most likely)
QJs, QT suited (but not neccessarily diamonds)
JTs
Sometimes pairs all the way down to 22.

You're certainly better than 5.66-1 to win here. It's not like you're facing a Malmuth UTG raise. Folding these rivers is a major leak.

Edit to add: I actually prefer to bet the turn here and fold to a check raise and then check the river unless I improve. You have to be able to lay your hand down to a check raise here of course for this to be the correct play (which I think Trix wouldn't have a problem doing.) However, the difference in EV from this play and checking the turn and then bet/calling the river is rather minimal. The trick here is you actually have to call the river.

[Mike Gallo]

If utg will raise with 77-10 10 you made a bad fold.

I agree with JTG, if I check the river its with the intenion of calling the river.

[Trix]

I dont think the calling station type players will raise with these in the first place.

I dont think I layed down the winner unless he had KdQd, which I dont think he will have more than 5.66:1.

[Kaz The Original]

Quote from Arkardy :
" i think you are beat 1 out of every 2+ times here. "
Isn't he getting 5:1?

Btw - is your name based on arkardy renko?

[WarmonkEd]

I think the turn check is ok. But did you take into account the possibility of it inducing a bluff on the river? Depending on the player, that could be very high, and thus make the river call correct.

[arkady]

its actually my real name, i was born in russia

[Trix]

I checked with intention of folding on the river yes unless I improved, yes.

[JTG51]

Against an habitual bluffer, would you check the turn and call the river bet?

Yup, that's definitely the best kind of player to use that play against, especially if you think he'll fold an underpair on the turn.

[Kaz The Original]

ok. Arkady Renko is a fictional character from the novel Gorky Park (about Russia of course). I'm polish but I've always wanted to live in russia for a year or two.

[JTG51]

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand that I can beat that I can see him calling the flop with is KdQd and I dont think he will have that often enough...

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? We're talking about a game where players routinely call down with any pair or a gutshot. It wouldn't be unusual for a Party 3/6 player to raise preflop then call that flop and turn with KQs, KQo, KJs, KJo, KTs, KTo, QJs, QJo, JTs, TT, 99, 88, 77, and any number of other hands.

[JTG51]

After playing in these games for a while now, how can you think that a typical Party 3/6 player checks and folds on a A J 6 flop with TT or KQo against a preflop 3-bettor?

I think a common theme in your posts is assuming that your opponents play the same way you do. You really need to get over that, it has to be costing you bets sometimes and the entire pot occasionally.

[Trix]

I agree that there are many who calls down with 2. pair, undepairs, gutshots, backdoorflushs and so on, but I dont think those people raise preflop with the those hands.

Most of those people are loose-passive as far as I have noticed in the short time I have been at 3/6.

[StellarWind]

The turn check is a good play. He is most unlikely to fold anything that beats you and you will be checkraised a lot. You'll fold but it will cost your 2 outs and sometimes he is bluffing or betting a jack.

I totally agree with the logic behind your fold. You will rarely be ahead after he calls the flop and the pot odds are clearly against you.

However, I've sent that part of my brain off to play chess. The fact is that no matter how much sense folding makes, it's wrong. My improvement as a player has been largely measured by my progressive realization of this. In addition to K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif you must consider KJs, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, QQ, TT-77, other KQ hands, plus a generous allowance for hands you haven't even thought of like 55 and JTs.

I assume you don't know this player. Therefore you assume he is probably a calling station. That's wrong. If you sit down at a table and an unfamiliar player raises UTG on the first hand, he is probably a LAG. Aggressive players are a minority but they do most of the raising. Of aggressive players, LAGs raise most frequently of all and also vastly outnumber the TAGs and Normal-AGs.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn check is a good play. He is most unlikely to fold anything that beats you and you will be checkraised a lot. You'll fold but it will cost your 2 outs and sometimes he is bluffing or betting a jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I wanted to spend another BB on this hand, betting the turn would be better as the hands I´m ahead has more outs than I have against the hands I´m behind.

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you don't know this player. Therefore you assume he is probably a calling station. That's wrong. If you sit down at a table and an unfamiliar player raises UTG on the first hand, he is probably a LAG. Aggressive players are a minority but they do most of the raising. Of aggressive players, LAGs raise most frequently of all and also vastly outnumber the TAGs and Normal-AGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont remembet how long I had been at the table, but maybe I hadn´t noticed him cuz he hadn´t done anything unusual ?

[Trix]

Betting the turn seemed to be the prefered line.

Spending one more bet on the turn, I´m getting 4.66:1 if he folds or 5.66:1 if he calls and I check behind on the river.

Hands that beat me: AK(12),AQ(6),AJ(9),ATs(3),AA(3),JJ(3),KK(3), thats 39 combinations, meaning he must hold 39/5.66 = 6.9 combinations I can beat to make to give me the 5.66:1 I need to make the call or 8.3 if I bet the turn and he folds.

Logically I only think I´ll beat KdQd, but people seem to think that the average UTG raiser will have a wider range.

TT-22,KQ(6),KJs(3),QJs(3),JTs(3). I can see some call the flop with gutshots or 2. pair, but most will muck the pairs. That leaves 15 combinations.

The thing is, if he raise those extra hands that I beat, then he will probably raise some more that I´ll loose to aswell. So instead of:

Hands that beat me: AK(12),AQ(6),AJ(9),ATs(3),AA(3),JJ(3),KK(3), then I must add: AT(12),A9(12),66(3),Axs(22) = 86.

Making it 88:15 = 5.86:1 that I´m beat.

He will also improve more often that me btw.

[Saborion]

Without any reads I'd assume your average 3/6 player would raise UTG with AA-TT, AK-KQ, AQ, AJs, ATs. You're behind to AA, JJ, KK, AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, and ahead of TT and KQ. Since he check-called the flop bet, I can only see him doing that with KQ if it's suited. I suppose you're behind way more often than your ahead. But without a read, you can't really be sure what he holds. He might've raised with KJs. He might fold K's to a turn bet. Checking behind on the turn is only good if you're quite sure you'll be check-raised and thus want to get a free shot at drawing out on him.

I still think betting the turn and checking behind on the river, folding to a check-raise on the turn, is the way to go since you might him to fold a better hand, and if not, you still may get a free showdown. The question is, what do you do if he calls your turn bet, and then lead the river?