I have 99 board shows TT

[Sarge85]

B&M $3/$6

No real "reads" on anyone - other than if you raise PF it seems to put the table on subtle Tilt-mania and the pot could come back capped. The table is usually passive if you don't "provoke" it PF. After the flop, players are a bit more cautious.

I'm dealt 99 UTG+1

UTG Limps, I limp, well a bunch more people limp as well.

Flop comes T T 5

SB Checks, BB Checks, UTG Bets, I raise - all fold back to UTG who just calls.

Turn comes a Q

UTG Checks, I bet, he calls

River comes a rag

UTG Checks, I check behind

-----------------------

Results aside - whats the best play on the flop?

[Sarge85]

OH - one other question....

(but i think i know the answer?)

PF Raise - In order?

[Rico Suave]

Hey Sarge

[ QUOTE ]
PF Raise - In order?

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably wouldn't. BM 3/6 game...your likely to have 6 cold callers! I like the limp.

--Rico

[Louie Landale]

You are out of position AND sandwhiched against a field and anybody could have a T. There is no dead-raise money in the pot. Txx flop would be a routine fold. A pair of Ts is a WHOLE lot better since [1] there are only 2 Ts left not 3 [2] One x rather than 2 means you are less likely to be beaton by a non-T hand [3] you are less likely to lose to a flush or straight [4] if you DO snag your 9 you are more likely to win.

Even with a pair of Ts there is no shame in folding. Raising is marginally profitable so long as [1] if you call you won't know what to do if it IS raised behind you; or even called in a few spots, and [2] the raise WILL clear up this confusion (you can fold later confidently if someone calls cold or 3-bets).

So you figure that if you raise you can got off it easily later? That's not enough. If you can get off it easily even if you call then raising loses a lot of its merit.

- Louie

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

So you figure that if you raise you can got off it easily later? That's not enough. If you can get off it easily even if you call then raising loses a lot of its merit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alot of the reason I raised was that in order for me to win this pot I figure I need a heads up situation - I can't let an overcard catch.

The table was pretty passive, so if I just call, I reckon at least half the people still will call.

Also, I think if a person in front of me had a ten, they would go for the slowplay - not bet the flop, so I don't really believe UTG - I was going to be more worried if the blinds came along.

The end result was that UTG flipped up QJ and took down the pot. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Rico Suave]

Hey Louie:

[ QUOTE ]
If you can get off it easily even if you call then raising loses a lot of its merit.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really do not see how calling is an option here. If there is a chance that our hero has the best hand, he surely wants to raise, not only to better define his opponents hands, but more importantly to protect his vulnerable one. We really do not want KJ or AJ or KQ to peel one off on the flop.

Am I missing something?

--Rico

[JTG51]

I know you didn't ask, but the river check is pretty bad. He's going to have a 5 or a pocket pair smaller than 9's the majority of the time here.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
I know you didn't ask, but the river check is pretty bad. He's going to have a 5 or a pocket pair smaller than 9's the majority of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I aggree or not.

Something about "Betting on the end, if I want to be called" - I don't want to be called.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Joe Tall]

Your flop raise is opponent dependant.

But, you have to value bet the river. A hand like A5, or 66 will bet this flop and call down often enough that the river is a sure bet.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Something about "Betting on the end, if I want to be called" - I don't want to be called.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do want to be called as the only thing beating you is a peeled off Q or an extremely slowplayed 10. Like JTG said, the majority of the time there will be a weaker hand that calls. Throw in that value bet.

Haupt_234

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Your flop raise is opponent dependant.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my flop raise is opponenet dependant, then do you aggre that if I don't raise in this spot - I should fold? Otherwise my hand isn't very good at all, as it will be ran down by a barage (sp?) of overcards.

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Joe Tall]

If my flop raise is opponenet dependant, then do you aggre that if I don't raise in this spot - I should fold?

I'd most likely raise. However, I also raise preflop so that changes everything.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Rico,

On the flop, I'd be more inclined to continue on if there were less players to act behind me, i.e. there was a bet and a few folds, or less players. Your raise isn't bad though, but you should definitely have glanced to your left. Playing live this is something you need to learn to do and do often. Looking left will make close plays much less close.

You should bet the river here. You're wrong; you do want to be called. You have no reason to believe he has a Q, no reason to believe he has a T, and no reason to believe he has a better pocket pair than you. He most likely has a made hand worse than yours. Value bet like a mother.

GoT

[JTG51]

I don't know if I aggree or not.

This one isn't close. It's an easy value bet.

If you still don't think so, you might get more value out of thinking about that decision than the flop decison.

Oh, and I forgot to say earlier. I'm not a big fan of raising 99 preflop from EP after one limper. I think limping is usually better.

(edited to add preflop comment)

[JTG51]

...then do you aggre that if I don't raise in this spot - I should fold?

No way. Raising is probably best, but calling is way better than folding.

I see "this is a raise or fold situation" type posts all the time, but in reality it's really rare for raising to be best but folding to be better than calling. That's especially true in low limit games where raises almost never force a better made hand to fold.

[Rico Suave]

Hey JTG:

[ QUOTE ]
I see "this is a raise or fold situation" type posts all the time, but in reality it's really rare for raising to be best but folding to be better than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that the "raise or fold" line is way over used. However, raising in this situation seem intuitively obvious to me. Calling seems bad.

[ QUOTE ]
That's especially true in low limit games where raises almost never force a better made hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that a better hand will not fold, and it is likely that people will still call incorretly with overcards in this situation. Is this why calling is ok here, b/c low limit player will still call incorrectly with overcards, and so you are wasting $ trying to protect your hand? That does not seem right.

Or is calling ok b/c there are multiple poeple left to act, and if there is a ton of action behind you, you can save a sb?

It just seems to me that if you continue in this hand, you would want to get overcards out...calling isn't likely to accomplish this.

I know I am pretty dense, so you may have to use small words and speak slowly, but why am I wrong here?

--Rico

[JTG51]

I don't think you're wrong. Like I said, I think raising is best. My point was just that calling is a lot better than folding.