KQs

[ddubois]

This was painful...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Just calling OK? I figure I want the multi-way action with this hand.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

From 9 to 15 outs worth a semi-bluff raise? I assume it would have 0% chance of folding everyone out of this massive pot.

River: (16.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Hero folds.

If CO was on the same flush draw as me with the ace, that would have been even more painful had I hit. Seems unlikely however, as the K, Q, and J are all accounted for and he raised pre-flop.

Final Pot: 18.16 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 18.16 BB, between BB and UTG+1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (18.16 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows Th Ts (three of a kind, tens).
UTG+1 shows Qs Js (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: BB wins 18.16 BB.

BB must be mildly retarded capping his 2-outter with an overcard on the board. Add to buddy list?</font>

[Guido]

I fold preflop. The rest was fine and make a note about the BB he's a moron.

Guido

[bernie]

I wouldve folded this preflop in this spot.

b

[BigEndian]

Please explain. It looks like an easy call preflop to me. There's a world of hands the CO could be raising with.

- Jim

[Lost Wages]

I would never fold preflop in this spot. 3-betting is a distinct option. On the turn you can raise 3 players with 15 outs for value.

Lost Wges

[Haupt_234]

I would 3-bet the flop as you have position and need less opponents with your hand. Try for the isolation raise.

Haupt_234

[Guido]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif With only 1 limper it's raise or fold to me. With no reads I fold. There aren't many hands that are worth a cold call. You want at least two or three limpers before the CO to make a cold call right IMO.

Guido

[BigEndian]

3-betting is good too, mainly because you don't care if the early limper comes along or not. To me, the CO could be raising with 55-AA and many paint card combos in between as well as Aces as low as A8s. I want to play my KQs against those hands.

Sure, the player is unknown, but I don't avoid playing in these situations because of that. On average, unknown players will be raising hands in the CO with one limper with a set of hands not much smaller than the one I stated above.

- Jim

[Guido]

I don't think that's true. An unknown doesn't raise 55-99 and doesn't raise A8s-ATs, I've almost never seen players raise in CO with QJo, KJo, QTo, KTo. We do but not an unknown. So I have to disagree with you.

Guido

[ddubois]

He's in the cutoff! It's a group 2 hand! Folding has got to be a distant third choice.

I'm still not sure about raising though. If CO really is raising a hand that dominates me like AQo, I really do want a big field for the flush/straight.

I didn't realize raising the turn would be for value until thinking about it some more this morning. I had perfect position for it too - all opponents had already put one in, so they clearly would have put in a second. Dang.

[tripdad]

we're all unknowns to each other, so yes...an unknown will raise with the hands endian suggests.

i would 3-bet preflop to force out blinds and force early limper to call 2 cold. also, many times this will allow you to take off a "free" turn card.

cheers!

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
we're all unknowns to each other, so yes...an unknown will raise with the hands endian suggests.


[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know that every unknown is a 2+2er /images/graemlins/confused.gif

About 70-80% is unknown and won't raise these hands.

Guido

[BreakEvenPlayer]

3-betting PF is better than a fold here. I don't like calling raises with KQs

[tripdad]

huh??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

i guess what i was trying to say is that 95% of the online players you play are "unknown"...not in any pokertracker database, etc...

from my experience, 2+2ers do not have intellectual rights to the A8s raise from the CO after limpers. in fact, MANY players do this, not just US.

cheers!

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding has got to be a distant third choice.


[/ QUOTE ]
NO! With only 1 limper it's raising or folding, cold calling is a distant third choice. When there are 3 or so limpers in front of the CO raiser you can think about cold calling. You have no read on the blinds and the CO so it's a clear fold to me. If the CO has loose raising standards it's a 3-bet, if you don't know it's a fold. You shouldn't be thinking in hand groups by the way.

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
MANY players do this, not just US.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not my experience... but cold calling is almost never right and this insn't one of the right ones...

Guido

[Mike Gallo]

Preflop

If you think the cutoff will raise light three bet him. I will normally three bet with this hand if I want to continue.

The flop looks fine to me.

I would have raised the turn.

You have to fold the river.

Force yourself to raise. I see from the post that you wanted to raise yet fought it. Try raising and see how much more you will win.

[Mike Gallo]

I've almost never seen players raise in CO with QJo, KJo, QTo, KTo.

Guys in the Netherland play differently then here. I wonder if Amsterdam has an influence? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I often see players at the Borgata raising from the cutoff with the hands you mentioned. Not to mention a host of other cards. I prefer to three bet however I do not think he makes that big of a mistake by calling.

[Mike Gallo]

I wouldve folded this preflop in this spot.

How come? Have you ever three bet the cutoff from the button with this hand?

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if Amsterdam has an influence?

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/grin.gif uhm no...

[ QUOTE ]
often see players at the Borgata raising from the cutoff with the hands you mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]
That could be true but from what I've heart B&amp;M players are worse...

I prefer 3-betting too. I don't say it's terrible but I think without any reads it's a fold or raise and calling is third not folding.

Guido

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold preflop in this spot. 3-betting is a distinct option. On the turn you can raise 3 players with 15 outs for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Insanity. You are assuming that a) he has 15 clean outs b) no one will fold to a raise, and c) he won't be 3-bet and end up heads up.

None of these are good assumptions. He could be drawing dead. Raising is wrong.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
How come? Have you ever three bet the cutoff from the button with this hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but i dont know this player. This is a raise/fold situation to me. Im not calling it.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If CO really is raising a hand that dominates me like AQo, I really do want a big field for the flush/straight

[/ QUOTE ]

With a raiser on your direct right, how are you planning on getting paid off on your draw? Call all the way letting players in behind you? A raise postflop forcing others behind you to call 2 isnt how to do it. You likely wont get the action needed for playing for the draw. Rharless had a good post about this awhile back.

I might be persuaded to cold call this in the SB, though. Since you can get a little more tactical with it. You can trap some callers in between you and the raiser.

I dont like being the first coldcaller with a drawing hand. I want some players in between me and the raiser.

If i chose to play it, i'm sure as hell not just calling it. Im 3 betting in this spot.

b