J-10 Offsuit Leak, Suggestions?

[MAxx]

I just discovered that I have been overvalueing J-10 offsuit preflop, by looking at how much I have lost with this hand using pokertracker. I have pretty much been limping from anywhere with it in unraised pots. I was actually surprised to discover this, because I am generally very tight preflop. This made me realize also that I am probably getting into trouble when I get a piece of the flop, instead of the straight draw. How do you suggest playing J-10 offsuit?

[Kluddeludde]

I would fold this one in early and middle position. Raise if first in in late position and limp with it if there are callers before you in unraised pots.

Some will advocate folding this one even in late position. I believe you are giving up too much if you do that.

Kludde

[Rico Suave]

Hey Maxx:

I will limp with JTo after limpers from the button. (sometimes from the CO if the players are especially bad and players to my left are passive preflop). Oh.... and I will play it out of the blinds.

JTo ain't all its cracked up to be.

--Rico

[Sarge85]

Just One -

Don't play it.

The game would need to be ideal to see a flop with this hand. I'd need like 6 limpers, have the button, and was damn sure the blinds weren't going to get fancy on me.

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Little Fishy]

the reason JTs is so good is it's the highest suited conectors where you can catch a strait in either dirrection. If they're off suit, you loose your flush draw and they go way way way down in value. even in an unraised pot calling with JTo is hardly better than any two mid level cards. I know it's Texas Hold'em but in any but an ideal situation, I say Fold'em.

[Bob T.]

For the most part, don't play it.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[StellarWind]

Unsuited connectors are junk. Play JTo only in favorable LP situations. One underappreciated advantage of suited connectors is that having two types of draw often gives value to the backdoor draws. The straight draw keeps you in the pot long enough to make a backdoor flush or vice-versa.

BTW, T9o is much weaker than JTo.

I have a suspicion you also play QJo too much. Usually avoid it before LMP.

[Haupt_234]

I found the same leak using my PT.

Simple solution for me, not playing it unless it's suited.

Haupt_234

[Brian]

Wait till he hears about how QJ and KJo should generally be mucked in early position. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Heck, I'm folding KQo UTG and UTG+1 in a 10 man game at the moment.

-Brian

[southerndog]

I second that. I'm usually mucking it from the button also. QJo is a tricky hand as well, that I am mucking in EP.

[DaveFoldsFive]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait till he hears about how QJ and KJo should generally be mucked in early position. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Heck, I'm folding KQo UTG and UTG+1 in a 10 man game at the moment.

-Brian

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you raising or calling with KQo in MP?

[MAxx]

Thanks for your help, I will take your advice on this...

Some of you were asking about my K-J, K-Q, and Q-J offsuit tendencies. I think they are ok. I not been playing Q-J or K-J from early positions, but have been limping with them from late middle and of course not raising or calling preflop raises with them. I could probably tighten up and only limp from late with them or even toss Q-J to the curb. K-Q I will limp early with, and somtimes raise from middle with but not always. I am fairly tight with the hands mentioned above, but perhaps not quite as tight as I should have been. I realize now that I was really out of line with the J-10 offsuit though. For some reason I though that it was significantly special b/c of its nut straight capabilities.... but it is overrated.

[Brian]

Hi Dave,

Depends on who is left to act behind me. Generally, I open it with a raise though.

-Brian

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason I though that it was significantly special b/c of its nut straight capabilities.... but it is overrated.

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the primers I read when I was getting started explicitly pushed JTo for its 4-way always-the-nuts straight capabilities. I'm not certain which one said it so I won't guess.

[wayabvpar]

I think Brunson mentions the 'always nut straight' possibilities of JT in Super/System, but I don't know whether he recommends it as a particularly strong hand.

[Brian]

It's Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones. He makes out JT to be a very strong hand because whenever you make a straight with both cards, it's always the nut straight. Unfortunately he seems to completely overlook its ability to be frequently dominated. I think if you always folded it pre-Flop except when stealing or in the blinds, you wouldn't be making that big of a mistake, if it's a mistake at all. I know I always do.

-Brian

[Kluddeludde]

If you know how to play it well postflop, I would say it is wrong to fold it in late position in unraised pots. However, it is a small mistake, and it is better to fold it if you have problem playing it postflop.

Kludde

[bernie]

Learn how to play ultra tight before loosening up. If you're valuing JTo over KJo, there's someting you're missing in the values of starting hands dept.

Get used to not seeing the flop for orbits at a time. Then, once you have the 'basic' hands under control, ease out on some other hands.

Those who fold JTo in LP or CO just 'because' seem to be forgetting to consider the opponents you're against. Both what they play/limp preflop, and how they play postflop.

Note though, that you still have to play these types of hands with caution postflop. Player knowledge helps. Which may be a big problem if multi tabling.

b

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
He makes out JT to be a very strong hand because whenever you make a straight with both cards, it's always the nut straight

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you make a straight with JT that doesn't use both cards?

[MrBlini]

89TQK, and you don't have the nut straight.