How would you profile this player

[bernie]

Slavic was sweating me on this hand. After watching the opponent for a bit, we came to pretty much the same conclusion.

Mucks 10-20

I open UTG with AQs. All fold to BB who calls. Ive never played with her before.

Flop K T 6 two tone, my tone WOO HOO!!!

check, bet, call

Turn Blank woo hoo...

check, bet, call

River Blank Dammit!!!

Check, desperation bet, 'CMON YA OLD BAG, FOLD!!!', call

I turn over saying i missed and her K was good. She mentions she doesnt have a K. I ask," Ten?"

She chuckles, 'nope.'

She turns over Q6.

well? what ya think?

b

btw...Both Slavic and me agreed that i shouldnt have bet the river given the 'way' she called the turn. But, oh well. Small mistake.

[balkii]

Calling station.

Regardless of the 'way' she called on the turn - you are heads-up last to act with the nut no-pair against a calling station (even if you havent seen her play a hand you can start to label her) - check it through. Your hand will be good here often; unless you really dont want your hand shown I think it is best to check here.

She is not thinking of her hand as a 5-outer, it is a made hand.

[Schaefer]

Sweet, the 10-20 players at Mucks are just like the 4-8 players. You gotta label 75% of the people here as loose passive calling stations. I went down there last Friday, were you there? I saw a Bernie A. and a Bernie S. on the waiting list.

Schaefer

[arkady]

In the limits I play, these people are the dreaded and unbluffable calling stations. A bet on the river would not have pushed her off.

[BigEndian]

Sounds to me like the typical old lady players. You can pretty much sit down, count the chairs they fill and know that if they touch the board and it isn't obvious they are beat, they are going to show-down.

If you make even one move and these ladies see it, they will call even more - especially making overcalls they might not make normally.

Great players to have around when you're making hands, horrible players to bet the river Ace-high against.

Btw, these are also the kinds of players that will only raise with an honest to God hand (2-pair or better). And almost never on a draw.

- Jim

[Bob T.]

Calling station city. You don't bluff against them, you just value bet the hell out of them. If they bet, you better have the goods to continue.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[arkady]

I havent had TOO much experiences with these old ladies, but the few times that I did I got shot the dirtiest look on a flop raise, that I did not dare to raise her again.

Bob and Endian, do you find these old ladies to be consistent losers? They are not particularly tight and they fail to value bet often - yet they seem to consistently last in these games.

[BigEndian]

I don't know any of them personally so I can't tell for sure what their win/loss rate is. If I had to guess, I would say marginal loser/winner depending on their starting requirements.

And oh boy do they ever get pissed if you check raise them. Shoot, I picked up a pot by CRing with a pair of 7s with a weak kicker that this one lady wasn't even in and she glared at me lol.

Honestly, I think these old ladies are the most consistent personality type at the low limits. You can generally tell things about old/young men and young women, drunks, etc, but old ladies must have all read the same book 30 years ago.

- Jim

[arkady]

Lol, i hear you on that one - haha. The old lady at the Mirage that looked at me, I felt was cursing the day I was born. As if I insulted her entire family, stole her savings and beat up her cat - jebus!

well, leave them be i guess - hope they are having fun doing what they are doing.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
In the limits I play, these people are the dreaded and unbluffable calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dreaded?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
well? what ya think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe she's a genius. Sure, her pre-flop call was bad. But, that was only one small bet. Post-flop, she got 2.5 big bets into the pot with the best of it.

[PokerBob]

Retard

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
In the limits I play, these people are the dreaded and unbluffable calling stations. A bet on the river would not have pushed her off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't dread calling stations, I love them.

[MRBAA]

lol. Just to clarify, people who play like this (and there are many of them, fortunately) lose all their money. Those who don't like it, or can't afford it, quit. The regulars who play like this go get more and lose it all. And so on. There's an old man who plays like this in a 4-8 game I'm in pretty regularly. He's a really nice guy. I've seen him win a huge stack once. Every other time I've played with him, he's left the table with no chips after rebuying several times.

[joker122]

I see PP players at 2/4 call down with less than that heads up routinely.

[Mike Haven]

bernie's chances:

AcQc vs Qs6d = 75%

AcQc vs Qs6d : KcTd6c = 56%

AcQc vs Qs6d : KcTd6c 2h = 34%

[chesspain]

The first time I went to Foxwoods, I was in the early stages of beating up on a 2/4 table when I went heads up with an old woman in the #5 seat who looked like she cut her teeth playing Faro in the Old West.

Right after I busted her out on this hand, as she was getting up to leave, she flung her cards at the dealer with the same hard spin like when Jesus Ferguson throws a card and slices a banana across the room. Maybe she learned this move from the real Jesus?

[slavic]

give me a table full of them.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
what ya think?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think players who call raises with Q6o are not going to fold when they make a pair, no matter how scary the board is.

[bernie]

Im the Bernie S.

b

[bernie]

Wow. Yknow, i gave a clue in there.

[ QUOTE ]
After watching the opponent for a bit, we came to pretty much the same conclusion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody mentioned Rule 1.

Rule #1: Dont count on a confirmed profile based on 1 hand. OR, better yet, dont judge a player by the play of 1 hand.

Yes, let it raise a flag, but dont act on it just yet. Watch a few more hands focusing on her before you adjust.

This lady was actually a pretty decent player. This was about the only hand i really saw her play this way. She was a little on the weak side, but she would easily bet draws on the flop, and sometimes semi bluff the turn. Fairly aggressive in the right spots. She also didnt carry herself in a typical, old lady playing fashion. She had a very 'alert' posture and was paying attention to the hands. Even the ones she wasnt really involved in. If you just treated her like a calling station, you would be in a little trouble.

She had a clue as to how the game is played. Slavic mentioned to me she quite possibly played her hand this way to see what i had and how i played.

Be careful not to jump to instant conclusions. Though this may be more prevelant in a higher stake, you may run into it at times on lower. i did on 4-8, even though it was rare. Something to be aware of.

That said, there are other signs that you can use to help draw a conclusion, making a 1 hand read stronger, such as how she carries herself at the table, as mentioned, but you still need some sort of pattern to go on.

River bet: Usually this is a routine bet. The main reason i shouldnt have bet this river was, again, the 'way' she called the turn. I ignored the 'calling down no matter what' sign. Slavic noticed it too. The way she called also kind of indicated she had something to show down. But again, that's minor.

Interesting answers though.

Thanks all.

b

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
River bet: Usually this is a routine bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? In this spot, you'll usually see one of three hands:

A pair
Missed flush draw
Missed straight draw

A pair that calls the flop and turn rarely folds the river here on a draw-heavy board like this. You have nut no-pair and can beat any missed non-pair draw. Routine check. I think the only time this bet works is when your opponent has something like T2s and catches a deuce on the turn.

[Bob T.]

They usually play a low volatility game, by not raising or betting a lot, not betting draws, not trying for free cards etc. I would expect that they lose over time, but that they get about the most seat time possible for the money they lose.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[bernie]

Routine may have been too strong a word. However, many dont bet the river enough as it is. Im guilty of that at times. My inner weak-tightie comes out.

Ive found many times players are also calling trying to hit their kicker. And when they miss, they fold. Especially with the K sitting out there.

But it also depends on the player you're up against. Some are more likely to fold here than others. Some i wouldnt bet this river at all.

Against an unknown, i will bet it most of the time. Unless i see something in their turn call. Like i did here, but ignored it.

Another type of player i like to bet this river against is someone who instantly grabs chips as the river card is falling and they check.

Again, i dont see it as a huge mistake to bet the river in this instance.

b

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Routine may have been too strong a word. However, many dont bet the river enough as it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. But most make the mistake of not value-betting enough. Here you're bluffing and many burn off chips bluffing too much.

[ QUOTE ]
Ive found many times players are also calling trying to hit their kicker. And when they miss, they fold. Especially with the K sitting out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very true on the flop call. Far less true on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, i will bet it most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's clearly a mistake for the reasons I mentioned in my initial response.

What percentage of the time do you see them folding a better hand there and what kind of better hand do you think it is that they will be folding?

[ QUOTE ]
Again, i dont see it as a huge mistake to bet the river in this instance.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a clear mistake. In your initial post you said this is a "routine bet." Now you've said it's not quite routine, but you bet it most of the time against an unknown. That's just wrong.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Be careful not to jump to instant conclusions. Though this may be more prevelant in a higher stake, you may run into it at times on lower.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very true. I've frequently made some online note like "Horrible passive play TPTK." or "Outrageous turn bluff." only to have PokerTracker show me later that the big picture is completely different.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Here you're bluffing and many burn off chips bluffing too much.


[/ QUOTE ]

This mistake compounds when they keep bluffing into a calling station. That's where overbluffing can really add up.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Ive found many times players are also calling trying to hit their kicker. And when they miss, they fold. Especially with the K sitting out there.


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That's very true on the flop call. Far less true on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lots of players will call the turn expecting a free showdown since many, including themselves, will not put in that final bet on the river. Even with bottom pair and a draw, theyll figure theyd only bet here if they can beat what they have and fold.

Many will also call a flop bet but fold on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Against an unknown, i will bet it most of the time.


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That's clearly a mistake for the reasons I mentioned in my initial response.

What percentage of the time do you see them folding a better hand there and what kind of better hand do you think it is that they will be folding?


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see it as a 'clear' mistake. Some will even call with a worse hand. A high, outkicked. If they fold their draw, you still gain by not having to show your hand. Bottom pair or a smaller pair may fold here on the river.

This is also only one hand. My betting this all the way through against an unknown 'could' encourage them to call more of my river bets with lesser hands in the future. Along with others at the table who watch how i play this hand. I also try and watch the others reaction at showdown, not just hers.

Some opponents dont care if im unknown to them, will only see their cards, know what 'theyd' likely bet with in these spots, and use their own way of playing to read your hand. This is more often the case for most opponents i see.

It's not like im not going to just keep betting into this all the way all the time. The next time i will adjust a little for this player. Trying to fine tune it a little when i get in this situation again with her. Im learning how she plays the way she's learning how i play.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a clear mistake. In your initial post you said this is a "routine bet." Now you've said it's not quite routine, but you bet it most of the time against an unknown. That's just wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also said it was a mistake because i had a read that she would likely call based on how she called the turn. 'That' part of my read, i ignored but shouldve acted on. That's what made it wrong. Not just the bet itself. It is my routine bet into an unknown if i have no read on their calls during the hand. After the hand, i have more information to work with on the next hand against them in this kind of spot.

This hand, as ive stated many times now, i had the read to alter my play and just didnt do it.

Im also not saying checking behind is a bad play. Information-wise, id agree checking behind and being able to see what theyve been calling with is beneficial.

I think the EV of betting here is probably pretty close either way. But one bet here is very small in regards to a whole session of play.

You also dont know how often they will fold to a bet, unless you bet and give them a chance to fold.

Without any reads in the hand, this is far from a hopeless bet. In fact, it's almost textbook to try and bluff a missed draw on the end like this. My read changes the betting into a mistake, not the bet itself.

b

[bernie]

You also may only notice these plays early on, or if a 'new' player comes in as opposed to the middle of a session and someone goes out of character and plays a hand badly.

Playing good poker goes against the natural instinct of being a creature of habit. (Section in schoonmakers book on stone killer explains this a bit better than i could)

Habit usually wins out. Some never learn to play good and just rely on their old habits.

This can also be a reason why fatigue forces many to fall back on 'bad' insticive habits, even though they 'know' how to play better. It can be hard mentally to keep up good play for long periods of time. It is draining after awhile.

Ive had to wait out solid (albeit weak) players before. One that comes to mind took about 7 hours for him to get tired and loosen up. Then i have to make a check on myself to make sure im playing well enough to try and take advantage of it.

For me, i get kind of timid and tight. That's my form of tilt when fatigued. One of my signs to take a walk and wake up, or leave altogether.

b

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the EV of betting here is probably pretty close either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep saying that, but that's just not correct. I've outlined pretty clearly why I'm sure that's the case.

[ QUOTE ]
But one bet here is very small in regards to a whole session of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's a weak justification. Either it's right or it's wrong, for some amount.

[ QUOTE ]
You also dont know how often they will fold to a bet, unless you bet and give them a chance to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. But you can put them on a range of hands and likelihoods. And you can use your poker experience to figure out how often they're likely to fold. And then you can decide whether a bet is a good idea or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Without any reads in the hand, this is far from a hopeless bet. In fact, it's almost textbook to try and bluff a missed draw on the end like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've explained already why I disagree with this. You know how many bets are in the pot. You can very simply illustrate the value of a bet here by thinking about likelihood of hands and those hands folding. I'm happy to see your ideas of what kind of situation makes this a good bet against an unknown and what range of hands they have that call you on the turn but fold a better hand on the river > 15% of the time. I'll get it started off for you. If your opponent has 22 and calls on a KT6x turn, your opponent will call a river blank near 100% of the time. You can do the rest.

[ QUOTE ]
My read changes the betting into a mistake, not the bet itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The fact that your opponent is unlikely to have a better hand that they will fold enough of the time on the river to make this a profitable bet is why the bet itself is a mistake. The fact that you got a read that the opponent was calling all the way is what changes it into a near full bet mistake.