A bit unsure about my play on this one

[Saborion]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

No idea about the opponent I'm up against here.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10 BB, between Hero and CO.</font>

[Mike Gallo]

Looks like your opponent missed his flush, and you missed a few bets.

[TonyG86]

Yeah i agree with MG in NJ, i think you shouldve bet the turn and then depending on his action (i.e. raise or call) bet the river as well.Flop play seems good to me though.

[Saborion]

You think?
I'm not used to people capping with a flush draw. I was VERY tempted to bet the turn, and would've if he hadn't capped the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

Many players I will know will do with to get a free card or to build a huge pot. Some do it for both.

In AC it appears to standard play to raise the flush draw on the flop if players have already called a bet. Players will not raise if nobody has already voluntarily entered the pot.

[sthief09]

I like your line here. I wouldn't have played it any differently.

The reason I don't like betting the turn is because you are in a bad spot if you get raised. If he's capable of capping the flop headsup with a flush draw, he can raise you on the turn also (admittedly that isn't likely).

Mike, what do you do if you're raised on the turn? Do you really think it's that likely that his opponent doesn't have him beat after capping the flop?

[Mike Gallo]

Mike, what do you do if you're raised on the turn? Do you really think it's that likely that his opponent doesn't have him beat after capping the flop?

What hands do you give him that can beat your hand on the turn? I think hero gave the villian a cheap shot at the flush. To me this smells like a nut flush draw.

Although I see this as the default play so often I might have a jaded opinion. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike, what do you do if you're raised on the turn? Do you really think it's that likely that his opponent doesn't have him beat after capping the flop?

What hands do you give him that can beat your hand on the turn? I think hero gave the villian a cheap shot at the flush. To me this smells like a nut flush draw.

Although I see this as the default play so often I might have a jaded opinion. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


the part that has me confused is the weak cold-call preflop with no one in between followed by the excessive flop action. if he has AK and is that passive he won't cap the flop, so he can't have AK. I don't think you can assume a typical player, or anything close to one, would play K5 or K7 in this spot. so the only hand that beats him is a set.

let's assume he'll play any suited ace A8s or up. that leaves 5 combinations. for a set there are 6 combinations assuming he doesn't have KK. from my experience, the people at 2/4 often like to slowplay their big hands, so I guess you have me believing that more than half the time it'll be a flush draw with an overcard.

being wrong sucks /images/graemlins/mad.gif

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Saborion]

I'm used to raises, but not capping. But I should've bet the turn regardless. I think...

[sthief09]

I'm with you entirely. When someone caps me on the flop, I start to give them credit for a good hand, but if you look at the board, it's not possible for him to have anything other than a flush draw or set. I really have to start looking at the board more.

[Saborion]

Not necessarily. I didn't have any notes on this one, sort of new at table as well. He could be one of those loose ones.

But yes. You're right. Still, is it worth betting out on the turn?

[Saborion]

.. this play?

Since it was HU, why not simply call his raise on the flop, then bet out on the turn? Given the board, his most likely holdings are a flush draw, a set, or possible a worse K. I may not maximize my winnings, but the question is, will I win more in the long run by playing it the aggressive way?

If I 3-bet the flop, call the cap, lead the turn and is raised, then I should be able to safely assume a set and thus fold. Correct? Is that in general a better approch than to call his raise on the flop, lead the turn, call his raise and check-call the river unimproved? It sure is a cheaper way, and would make him pay the most for his flush draw, if that's what he's on, while losing the least to a set.

[Mike Gallo]

I'm with you entirely. When someone caps me on the flop, I start to give them credit for a good hand, but if you look at the board, it's not possible for him to have anything other than a flush draw or set. I really have to start looking at the board more.

I have played against players who will cap an open end straight draw on the flop.

Turn action will often define a players real hand, not the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

Did you ever consider check raising the turn?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not possible for him to have anything other than a flush draw or set.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot top pair.

Also alot less likely but remotely possible AA. Worry about that on the turn with a possible set.

b

[bernie]

Dont worry about a set til the turn.

BTW...when it got HU, he was losing money on each additional bet he put in with his flush draw. Not much, but he was paying.

Capping here also disguises other hands that you would play this way.

Bet the turn, if raised, call it out. I wouldnt be sure enough in my read to fold any time here.

As one poster mentioned, many times a set will wait for the turn. Even though im seeing a little more flop jamming with them lately.

b

[bernie]

Good move there. Especially the way the hand was played.

Then if 3 bet, i might consider laying it down at that point. He's saying he can beat top pair.

b

[Saborion]

Well, no.
This guy sure made me play poorly according to the Theorem of Poker. Second player I've seen capping a flush draw with position HU on the flop. Needless to say, he should've gone for the free card. And that makes me wonder. I doubt going for a c/r here would be correct if he indeed is on a flush draw, since hes then likely to take a free card.

Two respected poster have said bet the turn, call the raise and check-call the river, so I guess I need to do just that. I really didn't want to check that turn in case he was on the flush draw, but his cap made me chicken out.

Ok, I'll be back in a day or two with a new, better played hand, just like this one. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: Hmm... still not sure though. I've seen people cold-call with AK as well. Hmmm.... Oh well.

[Mike Gallo]

Saborian,

What did he showdown?

[arkady]

I have seen people cap the flop with str8/flush draws and never liked it. Do you feel this is a good play, lets use this particular hand for an explanation.

thief, you are mathematically inclined when it comes to these kind of questions - can you justify capping a draw?

If there is one that irritates me most on the flop, its THAT... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
thief, you are mathematically inclined when it comes to these kind of questions - can you justify capping a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

He had 12 outs (the flush plus the A overcard outs), which is a bit under 50% to hit, albeit only 35% are to the nuts. The fact that he could potentially make Hero fold by showing excessive action makes this a good spot to show a lot of aggression.

[Saborion]

Oh Mike. It's irrelevant for whether or not I played correctly, but granted, it maybe be of interest to some people. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

He had A /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif for the nut flush draw.
I'm still with Trix on this one. Bet the flop, call if raised and it's HU, then lead the turn. Cheap showdown if behind while at the same time making him pay for his flush draw. But the best apporach maybe is to 3-bet the flop and lead the turn?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Hmm... still not sure though. I've seen people cold-call with AK as well. Hmmm.... Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think most people who play passively preflop continue to do so post-flop. if he is passive and cold-calls AK in a pot between only him and Hero, then it's unlikely he'll cap the flop with TPTK. He might raise your bet, but if he's the scared type that cold-calls AK, he'll probably call your 3-bet rather than cap.

[sfer]

I will routinely cap a multiway flop with 2 overcards and a 4-flush--you're a slight favorite to outdraw TP in this situation if your outs are clean. Sometimes with 1 overcard and a 4-flush if I have the A or K and it's 3+ calling along. Very occassionally heads-up if I think my opponent is particularly weak-tight. One guy on Party said I should stop "raising like an asstard" with just a draw. I liked that so much I use Asstard in regular speech now.

[arkady]

heya,

That seems reasonable, in fact in a multi-way pot even I would do it. I am more interested in analyzing this play when it is HU or 3 people as I often see it done like that. I feel those that do it those situations are not thinking properly, maybe trying to push you off the hand...i dont evne know.

For instance at AP, few weeks ago the guy capped me (HU) with a board of T 8 4 - (while I was holding TT). I knew him to be overly aggressive and put him on a set immediately and just capped the turn/river (oops). The final board: T 8 4 7 3 and he shows J9!

So um...he was capping purely on that OE str8 draw - and it just pissed me off, what an asstard he is.

[arkady]

Not bad...the potential to push the opponent off is probably important to consider - thnx bro.

[Mike Gallo]

I knew he had the flush draw. I felt quite confident that you missed a few bets. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I consider this an insightful post. Any time you can gain insight into your opponents play and recognize diverse playing styles you will learn.

Check raise the turn and value bet the river against this type of opponent.

[sfer]

Nice read. I guess the batteries are fully charged. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mike Gallo]

I have seen people cap the flop with str8/flush draws and never liked it. Do you feel this is a good play, lets use this particular hand for an explanation.

If the bet comes from my left and I have players who call in between I like to raise/cap and trap them in between. If the bet comes from my right and nobody has acted yet, I will tend to call situation dependent.

[Mike Gallo]

[ QUOTE ]
I will routinely cap a multiway flop with 2 overcards and a 4-flush--you're a slight favorite to outdraw TP in this situation if your outs are clean. Sometimes with 1 overcard and a 4-flush if I have the A or K and it's 3+ calling along. Very occassionally heads-up if I think my opponent is particularly weak-tight. One guy on Party said I should stop "raising like an asstard" with just a draw. I liked that so much I use Asstard in regular speech now.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO you might play a little to laggish /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Mike Gallo]

[ QUOTE ]
I will routinely cap a multiway flop with 2 overcards and a 4-flush--you're a slight favorite to outdraw TP in this situation if your outs are clean. Sometimes with 1 overcard and a 4-flush if I have the A or K and it's 3+ calling along. Very occassionally heads-up if I think my opponent is particularly weak-tight. One guy on Party said I should stop "raising like an asstard" with just a draw. I liked that so much I use Asstard in regular speech now.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO you might play a little to laggish /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Louie Landale]

Bet-call-then-bet-out is a disaster most of the time. It only has some merit if you CAN confidently (and correctly) fold your TP2K to a turn raise. Even then it only saves you 1sb. Even then its almost a disaster when the opponent knows what he's doing since you have pretty much announced your hand as one that can only beat a flush draw (You wouldn't do it with a set of Ks, no?) Expect such players to confidently raise again on the turn figuring, correctly, the chances that you fold is pretty good. If you incorrectly figure he'll back down then you are dead meat.

You may have to trust me on this one: Experienced player, even otherwise bad ones, smell blood. Your blood.

Almost always better is 3-betting and then betting; or calling and check-calling. Or calling and check-raising. Or 3-betting and check-raising. Or 3-betting and check-calling.

- Louie

[BigEndian]

I do do this with my set of Ks sometimes looking to get a 3-bet in on the turn if the flush doesn't land.

- Jim