i direct the money.....

...but not into my stack.


i'm starting to think the loose-passive players love me in their games.


if i wasn't there, they'd check and call eachother down and see who ended up with the best hand, they'd have a nice laugh and someone would win a tiny pot. no thrills, no real "gambling". the money would just sort of flow evenly around the table as the rake slowly drained it away.


but then i sit down. when i'm in the pot, i'm usally raising, creating large pots, trying like hell to protect my hands.


on any given hand, 5 of them hate it, because i'm making them put more money in the pot where they want to just call one bet, but usually, theres that last one, the loose end that hangs you, the last player that loves me for doing all that raising.


i'm in MP and raise 4 limpers with AKs, 2 behind me cold call, both blinds stay.


flop comes A K 3 rainbow


EP bets, i raise, everyone calls, probably trying to hit a gutshot, or pickup a backdoor flush draw or even straight draw. and even 3X will hand around and try for a 2 outer to another 3.


turn 9 two hearts on board.


checked to again, i bet, everyone calls except SB.


river 3h, completing backdoor hearts and pairing the board.


checked to me, i check, one of the coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call and showdown.


A has a backdoor flush J-high, B has Q3o for trips, C has A7o, D (guy who bet into me on flop)has pocket K's for a fullhouse and takes it down.


"i thought you had pocket Aces" then he actually thanked for making the pot so big as it was pushed to him in two huge piles.


"yeah, don't mention it," was all i could muster.


never have any idea where i am with these guys. "call, call, call, call, call", no information gained, even when i'm way behind with a strong hand i have no idea and keep giving my money away.


i channel huge pots to whoever's in with me and flops a solid hand, or who draws out, sometimes i win these pots, but more often that not i get a pat on the back from the old dude next to me, "thanks son, you're my good luck charm."


one time an old lady actually handed me a dollar chip for "good luck" after she raked a huge pot after flopping a set on a hand where i too flopped a set smaller than hers. she check called whole way, with me betting/raising the other players. thanks lady, this'll help stop the bleeding.


yeah they really love me, i make it exciting for them. i'm glad they're all having such a good time.

The board is: A,K,3,9,3 (with three hearts)


River action: checked to me, i check, one of the coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call and showdown.


Did you consider folding on the river?


It's hard to follow the river action precisely. But, if you checked, someone bet, four others called the river bet, and then the action gets to you, a fold is something that must be considered. Even if there were only three (two?) callers ahead of you, you should consider folding.


What are four others calling a river bet with considering that you hold both an Ace and a King? If just one of them holds a 3 or has two hearts, then you are just paying off here.


I'm not saying calling one bet on the river is a mistake. But, it is a significant mistake if you are not considering the option of folding.


I would almost certainly call here as well. Of coruse, I would also have bet the river.

First off I recommend playing a bit higher limits, even if you don't have much of a bankroll to speak of. Those types of games are just too frustrating, period, despite a huge potential for profit; the swings are just too big. Plus in live casinos the rake takes a much higher percentage of the pot at the lower limitsBottom of Form 1

and tokes are also a higher % of the pot. If you don't have much money to invest in poker at the moment play online, bottom limit live casino poker is a sucker's game.


A fold was in order on the river in that hand. A big leak for a lot of LL players is river overcalls. You are beat here, lay it down. Next time you're at a table like that, keep mental track of how many times you win on the river by overcalling (intentionally calling instead of raising to induce other overcalls doesn't count). It wont be more than 5%, if that - if you were winning you'd be the one betting or raising, not the one calling. Its analogous to someone betting into 5 opponents on the river with KK when an ace flopped.

Ah the fun of low limit poker. I play a lot of 4-8 and I am still get surprised when I showdown a sure winner and someone has been check/calling with an even better hand. A few weeks back I have KQ in an unraised pot. Flop is KK7. I bet and one guy calls. Turn is 9. Check, I bet he calls. River is a 2. Check, I bet he calls. I proudly turn over KQ not imagining I lose. He shows AK for the win /images/frown.gif


But the key is these types of players will check/call with 2nd best more often then with best so you can still make money off of them.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

Often helps disguise my hand, where I can appear like a calling station when I'm way ahead. The guy with KK may have been doing this before the flop and after: letting you and the others bet his hand for him. Then, at the end you all got rope-a-doped into paying the 2nd nut hand off.


Say I'm in EP with AA in a wild game - why raise when I know the pot will likely be capped? As for the rest of your play, well, ya got beat. Happens.


Like the others said, given the action at the river you need to consider mucking here - too many hands beat you. The fact that you were likely ahead before then means nothing, except to the quiet guy who flopped second set, and he may have put you on AA.


Wild games require supreme self-control and a hefty bankroll, but can be a no-brainer way to make a living.

1 idea is to wait for the turn to raise/bet. hopefully making it 2 bets for anyone to call. p170 i believe in HPFAP. can work well in these types of games...if your 3 bet here, you can usually lay it down. id reread the loose games section. itll give ya some ideas on how to both save chips, AND charge alot.


you actually saved chips on this hand, especially the way the KK played the turn.


small consolation though i know...but i love these tables cause i can draw cheap and charge em to draw. and when your hands start holding up...and they will eventually...youll have huge stacks in front of ya.


better luck next time..


b

> ...but not into my stack.


> i'm starting to think the loose-passive >players love me in their games.


I'll tell you why in a minute.


> if i wasn't there, they'd check and call >eachother down and see who ended up with the best >hand, they'd have a nice laugh and someone

> would win a tiny pot. no thrills, no real >"gambling". the money would just sort of flow >evenly around the table as the rake slowly >drained

> it away.


This is a fact. It's not poker what they do.


> but then i sit down. when i'm in the pot, i'm >usally raising, creating large pots, trying like >hell to protect my hands.


Often you cannot protect your hand properly on the flop in these games.


> on any given hand, 5 of them hate it, because >i'm making them put more money in the pot where >they want to just call one bet, but

> usually, theres that last one, the loose end >that hangs you, the last player that loves me for >doing all that raising.


> i'm in MP and raise 4 limpers with AKs, 2 >behind me cold call, both blinds stay.


Good.


> flop comes A K 3 rainbow


> EP bets, i raise, everyone calls, probably >trying to hit a gutshot, or pickup a backdoor >flush draw or even straight draw. and even 3X >will

> hand around and try for a 2 outer to another >3.


Ok, your raise will not knock out players on the flop, right? You know this but you deny it by raising on the flop. The fact is, you can call and see the turn. If the turn card is one you like then raise there. If not you can check-call or even just fold. If that KK guy bets into you on the turn and you raise, will the lone 3 stick around? You want him to stick around now! On the flop, though, he's correct or close to correct to cold-call your raise!


If you start playing this way, you will probably hate it at first. I agree that this is not poker. But it's the game you're in and you should choose an optimal strategy for the game you're in.


I find the automatic impulse to raise my apparent monsters difficult to resist sometimes. Especially when it looks like you should be able knock sane players out of the pot like you were probably thinking with this hand. But you should still add this play to your arsenal and force yourself to use it!


> turn 9 two hearts on board.


> checked to again, i bet, everyone calls >except SB.


See, now if you had smooth-called the flop and raised the turn, you screw up the pot odds for the flush draw. You also very well define your own hand and can play with very good accuracy on the river. The accuracy issue is a very important thing about these games that probably most players don't think about. Most players imagine that their hand 'should' win and make some unfortunate bets and crying calls. I think that this is an unskilled way to approach a loose game.


If you can play against loose players as if you knew exactly what they held it may stop bothering you the way they play. When you get sucked out on it will often cost you less than you might expect. And again, If it's in plain sight that you put in the majority of your money with the best of it and you are losing repeatedly then things must turn around! And losing will bother you less. If, however, you are finding that you're often dumping 2+ bets *after* you have already been sucked out on then you should reexamine your game and now have good reason to feel bad about what is happening.


> river 3h, completing backdoor hearts and >pairing the board.


It's too bad. Now, if you had been able to raise the turn you could check-fold the river for the first bet here knowing that you are beat. So your way, you are spending 3 bets postflop and end up with a crying call. My way, you are spending 2.5 (3.5 if you like the river) bets postflop, have knocked out some people and gained significant pot equity, and know precisely where you are on the river.


> checked to me, i check, one of the >coldcallers bets, 5 people(!), including me, call >and showdown.


I think you need trips or maybe a flush to be the first overcall here. To be like the 3rd or 4th overcall? I'd need a full house.


> A has a backdoor flush J-high, B has Q3o for >trips, C has A7o, D (guy who bet into me on >flop)has pocket K's for a fullhouse and takes

> it down.


If you can raise the turn you will probably dump the Q3 and A7. Now A7 is drawing dead to your hand but Q3 you should like to drop or have him call his 2 outer at an exorbitant price on the turn. And maybe the A7 is a total fool who has never dumped top pair in his life and you get a good bonus from his call. You'd also like to charge the J-high flush draw a double bet on the turn for a 4-1 shot. Any gutshots to broadway which could easily have been out there will also normally drop for a double bet on the turn or are almost certainly incorrect to call a double sized bet.


There's nothing you can do about KK of course. Your real piece of misfortune is that someone had KK when you had AK. But this is usually very unlikely.


> "i thought you had pocket Aces" then he >actually thanked for making the pot so big as it >was pushed to him in two huge piles.


Well, he's likely an idiot.


> "yeah, don't mention it," was all i could >muster.


> never have any idea where i am with these >guys. "call, call, call, call, call", no >information gained, even when i'm way behind with >a

> strong hand i have no idea and keep giving my >money away.


You don't want information, just people calling double sized bets with garbage.


> i channel huge pots to whoever's in with me >and flops a solid hand, or who draws out, >sometimes i win these pots, but more often that

> not i get a pat on the back from the old dude >next to me, "thanks son, you're my good luck >charm."


And this is where they have you. It gets to my ego when people do things like this. And it's hard to play without the ego.


> one time an old lady actually handed me a >dollar chip for "good luck" after she raked a >huge pot after flopping a set on a hand where i >too

> flopped a set smaller than hers. she check >called whole way, with me betting/raising the >other players. thanks lady, this'll help stop the

> bleeding.


You don't need her sympathy. But take the dollar!


> yeah they really love me, i make it exciting >for them. i'm glad they're all having such a good >time.


They probably enjoy calling your flop raises, it's true. You should see what they think when you do it to them on the turn. Or what they think when the turn card looks scary and you are paying them off the minimum, but gaining the max when your hand is good.

Stop trying to steal my big blind when we're playing Poki!


Q7 or better? I reraise *you*!

I remember this phenomen from my days at $.5/1 online, when I used to keep a very close tab at both % players seeing the flop and the average pot.


What I discovered was that my pots used to be twice the average pot. Sometimes others got these too. A dry top pair of Jacks when I didn't make my nut flush with one or two good overcards for instance, punishing the other weak calls for gutshots and improvement on their bottom pair in the process.


I bet it's fun for the calling station to have one 'action' player in their game!


lars

A. They are playing Holdem slots and you are playing poker.


B. They actually are very good players for this type of game who play almost any crud preflop and let the flops define their hands, while you are defining your hand from your two cards.


Either way you need to adjust. Standard S & M hands do not work well in this type of game, as you are finding out. Figure out how they think and you will know how to beat them. Some of the posts above mine have some very good advice, especially waiting for the turn to get aggressive rather than building the pot early and locking them in to the river to turn over the pot to another player.


When a junk card player gets in your [normal] game, really study what he/she does. It looks crazy, but it's usually based on sound play. Sure they take some big swings, and they play a lot of hands, but they usually leave with more chips than they started with. Takes a really strong stomach though.


I might catch some flak for this, but I think really tough and really passive games have a lot in common when it comes to betting strategy.

Last night at Aztar, Evansville, IN, the three biggest winners were playing "crap" cards. They were exceptionally good players though and they cashed in mountains of chips. At least, I recognized that although they played very loose, it was a "controlled" loose and aggressive game they played.


I ended up winning 1.71 BB per hour for my 9.5 hour session. This was $5./10. BTW. I have a heck of a time at $2./4 online.


There was only one c/r all evening, and I made it. This old lady Miss Charlotte called w/K3s, made a pair of 3s on the flop, stayed and made trips on the river to suck out on my nice big two pair. A few hands later I c/r her, and she said "he c/red me!" I said that was for the K3 play earlier. I guess that wasnt very gracious of me for doing that to a nice Southern lady :=)


Miss Charlotte got me on the last hand though, so she had the last laugh and word as she said on my departure, "I enjoyed playing with you." It was the last hand before the blind got to me, and I had already racked my chips and announced it was my last hand. I made the nut flush on the last card, but the board had a pair of kings. I said to myself, nah, she cant have a full boat as I raised the paired board and was reraised in turn, but she turned over K3 to go with the KK3 on the board. She dragged a very nice pot, and I cashed in a few less chips :=) Ironic, huh!


Thanks guys for this thread. I will remember to not always jam my top pair on the flop from now on. This gives me lots to think about when it is my bet on the flop.


Don Quixote

They actually are very good players for this type of game who play almost any crud preflop...


Standard S & M hands do not work well in this type of game


It looks crazy, but it's usually based on sound play


Of coruse, I completely disagree with all these statements. Playing weak cards pre-flop is going to cost every player money in the long run.


Sure they take some big swings, and they play a lot of hands, but they usually leave with more chips than they started with


I suspect you're drawing an incorrect conclusion because you're seeing players showdown weak hands and winning big pots but rarely see other players muck the weak hands which cost them multiple bets hand after hand.

I have to agree with Dynasty here,


I think that those of you who think these players are winners in the long run are confusing the fact that they have big swings, and are sometimes the big winner in single sessions with how they do over the course of a year.


I have a friend who is a very loose very aggressive player, and he sometimes has monstrously good sessions. Recently he even ran over the games between LL and mid limit (4-8 up to 8-16) for a whole month and in the same month also won a 10 table tournament. He was probably up 10,000 for the month.


At the same time, you wouldn't want to trade the last years results with him, (down about 15,000 including the +10,000 month) and I know that there aren't many people who could afford to pay what his life to date has to be. (I cant say for sure, but I think down 15,000 is a good year for him.) But if you watched him during his magic month, you would think that the way to play, is see about 70 or 80 percent of the flops regardless of position, or preflop action, and raise anytime you have two cards that were within hollering distance of each other. It might work for a short time, but I don't think it will work in the long run.


The other thing to remember, is that that is good, because all those players see that working sometime, and try and play that way, are probably going to leave most of that money in the poker economy, where you can get a shot at it, if you are playing a quieter solid game.


Good luck,

Play well,

Bob T.

Maybe I posted with the wrong subject, and maybe I spoke too soon :=) Two of these guys are long-term winners, and the other one was new to me. The third one played very, very loose. He won big before the evening was out, and yes, Dynasty and Bob, he undoubtedly will lose big time in the long run.


I am not the most observant player and I will admit I spent more time watching the really loose goose than I did the other two. I saw the other two turn over Ax a couple of times and probably jumped to conclusions as to what they were playing most of the time. It was very hard for my old eyes to see their cards. I am going to have to try to get a seat across from the dealer so I can see more of the "show" cards and the board cards better. Of course this flies in the fact of sitting in the best seat in relation to maniacs and passive players, but it is kind of hard to move at some of the low turnover tables.


Anyway, guys, thanks. I am learning from you all. The books by themselves are just not enough. One needs the books, 2+2 and experience at the tables.


Don Quixote

Well, now I have to disagree with both of you. I am not talking about some farm seed who plays nickel, dime at the kitchen table now playing junk cards at the casino table. As the game was described there were a lot of players seeing the flop and Pollux isn't making a profit.


When you have say seven players seeing the flop, you need to be selective about when to ram and jam. Having a flop of 7,8,9 with two suited isn't a great time to be capping with a big pair. On the other hand holding 4,4 and seeing a flop of A,K,T isn't the time to be jamming with those cards either.


Why would the amount of winning players who do play junk cards be any greater than the amount of players who play good cards? It takes skill to win, and knowing two non winners does not deny a valid system of play. There are many ways to play poker, of course only a few have optimal win rates. Perhaps that is the confusion? What determines a successful method? Maybe a good junk card player [obviously] likes action better than big profit, and will be happy with a $5.00 win rate over a years time? How many monetary winners are in your games and how many are there for other reasons?


Simply put, odds is odds. A hand that pays $.50 every four times it's played is okay with some people. It's shows a profit. If the situation is right and you play A9o in a family pot and you match your Ace suit three times on the flop, you are sitting pretty good if they are spread out cards. Three more Aces is even better. Suddenly two junk cards are a dynomite hand, yes?


Finally, I don't think I was promoting junk card play. I was replying to a post. Although junk card play is a blast when the games are loose!

they look like theyre winning tons. but wait til theyre not hitting hands...watch how much they dump. they tend to get that somber look. i like when they have that look. it usually means my hands are holding up. good guys to keep track of in your cardroom actually. nice to have on your table.


there was a gal where i play who won about $70,000 in a super jackpot. her actual take home was about $80,000 combined with the normal jackpot. after that, she saw just about every flop. always had about 4 stacks in front of her. and almost always see the river. some days, shed win pretty good. but guess what? she hasnt been around in awhile.


the cards will turn on these guys. eventually they always do...which is why you have to be patient...sit and wait. the chips will come your way. eventually. and maybe not this session.


dynasty had a great point about you only seeing the hands they win with. on their losing sessions, you wont see much of what theyre mucking at the river that they chased all the way.


there are some adjustments,handwise, to make during these games, that can help out quite a bit. read the loose games section.*S&M* lots of great stuff in there. even some hands that you think are playable, but unless you know how, are better to throw away...


give it a gander...


b

"Why would the amount of winning players who do play junk cards be any greater than the amount of players who play good cards? "


some winning players will play junk at times...but very rarely. they wouldnt tend to play a whole session that way. even for image play, that can be overkill.


"How many monetary winners are in your games and how many are there for other reasons? "


this is a very good point that many tend to forget about. many players just play for the fun and action. the entertainment factor. which is fine. and theyll even win some sessions. if they always lost theyd never come back and play.


however, players like me tend to watch for this type and the 'junk' player since theyll be seeing way too many flops. if they can get tricky, its a little tougher, but you catch em eventually.


" If the situation is right and you play A9o in a family pot and you match your Ace suit three times on the flop, you are sitting pretty good if they are spread out cards. Three more Aces is even better. Suddenly two junk cards are a dynomite hand, yes? "


what if you flop 2 As you bet and get 1 or 2 bets coming back at you? you set yourself up for some tough situations and decisions.


of course quads is always nice, however, quad As can be tough to get much money with, since many wont be calling.


there are loose game type hands that may not be playable in a typical game, but work in a passive game. but there is also just plain garbage that should be tossed regardless.


just some thoughts..


b

Had to stop...finishing now. Thanks


This is low limit small stakes, not pot limit or WSOP. It's doubtful more than a few players in the world could live off their $4-8 winnings, but most can afford continued losses or they wouldn't be at the tables.


As you both have read Dr. Schoonmaker's book, you know there are more motivations to playing poker than simply making a profit. Although If all players were winners, I wouldn't playing, as they all would be too tough for me. I couldn't possibly know the motivations of the players in the game in question, but profit does not have to be one of them.


As for junk card players I have seen them come through town stay two or three weeks and leave. One was exceptionally good. Fascinating style of play, a real good hand mix, you never know if you are against 72o or AA. He appeared to have nice profits when he finally quit for the day. I also watched him peel off some hundreds during sessions. He told me me he nets about 10 BB for every five hours of play on average. He would taunt the better players to take him out of the game and send him home, but they rarely did. He might be a liar, who knows? I beleived him. Of course a case can be made that he lost big previously or never really wins. But it is possible he is very very good at his play and enjoys a better mix of action and profit than most of us? I doubt you can find action at big limits that you can at low limits, and action he craved or he wouldn't have that style of play. I know sounds like an poker tall tale, what can I say?


Now my fingers are all bruised...LOL