Making moves in LL

Paradise $0.50/1. There are some weak players at this passive table and an unusual (to me) ammount of river folding for single bets. 3 limpers to me in cutoff +1 and I limp with ATo. Cutoff, button, and blinds call. 8 players, 8sb.


FLOP: 7c 2h 8d


It's checked to me and I bet. The cutoff, small blind, and the first two limpers call. The third limper, on my immediate right, raises. I call, cutoff and small blind fold, and limpers call. 4 players, 18 SB = 9BB


TURN: [ 7c 2h 8d ] 3s


First two limpers check and third bets. I raise. The first two limpers auto-muck and third calls. 2 players, 13 BB


RIVER: [ 7c 2h 8d 3s ] 7d


Third checks, I bet, he calls.


All comments welcome.

He's got J8s or 99 and takes down the pot.


He's may have T9 and is making a value raise on the flop. However, with this he won't call the river bet.

I normally never comment on hands as I am a big time newbie, but it really seems like you overplayed your hand here. No raise preflop and he check raised on the flop, which in my mind puts him on a set, or two pair at least. Possibly, 7s, 2s, or 78 two pair. Now after he does not raise on the river (any of the above gives him a full house or quads), I would put him on a straight draw, he missed and now is making a crying call. He might have pocket 9s, but I would have expected him to raise with 9s preflop.


But, I do not know how you raised him on the turn, with Ace high card. It appears that you won this pot, since he did not raise you on the river, but it was REALLY a risky play - IMHO!! I would say you got lucky. :-)


What are the results!?


Paul

I say typical because I've had my two-pair, trips beat lately by they mighty crappy J8o holding nothing but a gutshot str8t possibility and hitting them on the river.

With 8 players in the pot, somebody got some piece of the flop, and it is likely that anyone with overcards has a better hand than yours making a ten your only likely out. Even a ten isn't exactly a clean out, because it puts a straight and a straight draw on the board. The only Ace that you can beat is A9. I think you can give this up on the flop.


I would guess that you lost, and gave away 4 big bets to a player who flopped top pair.


Good luck,

Bob T.

Heh the first thing you learn when you start playing against better competition is that a raise or a checkraise, especially on the flop, does not necessarily mean "two pair or better". If the 3rd limper had T9 he most certainely was correct to checkraise here in order to pump his draw.


To be honest moves like this are rarely worth doing in microlimits - people just don't care about one "big bet" on the river. A couple weeks ago I was playing paradise 1/2, I open raised in EP with AKs and was 3 bet by an LP player, heads up. Flop is rags, no broadway, I check and call. Turn is another rag and I check and call again, and I bet as essentially a bluff on the river low card. LP calls.. with QJs unimproved.

I normally never comment on hands as I am a big time newbie


I think I became a better player in large part because I wrote my ideas on this website rather than just reading.


The worst thing that can happen is that somebody will come along and say "Hey PaulF! I think you're wrong and here's why". Odds are good that it will be me doing that. /images/smile.gif

ATo isn't much of a hand to limp with here pre-flop. A weak Ace is very hard to play correctly in a pot that is likely to be contested at least 6 ways. Both raising and folding pre-flop should be considered.


Post-flop, it should be obvious that you should fold at your earliest convenience.

Actually, someone correcting an incorrect idea is the BEST thing that can happen to a new player/new poster.

preflop i hate ATos...especially multiway....unless i can get it shorthanded, *usually by raising*, or in cheap from a blind, or maybe a LP, ill dump it. IF i chose to play it here, id've been raising tryin to get anyone out...you may have the best A if it hits. maybe.


flop: the c/r might be on a draw...or 2 pair..maybe just an 8...but given his turn call from being raised, i doubt he has a set. even more doubtful with his river call.


if i chose to call his flop c/r, and i doubt if i would, id be for folding the turn with no improvement. theres just too many still in at this point, and he's still betting into you and the field...and theyve gotta be calling with something. but ya did succeed in getting it HU.


since he only called the river, id say a pair of 8s took it down


id be suprised if A high held up...


b

Paradise .5-1. Passive game, so I'm playing more speculative hands. I'm in middle position and pick up Ah8h. The texture of the game is such that if there are a lot of early limpers, almost everyone comes in and there is rarely a raise.


2 limpers, I limp behind, and sure enough all 5 players behind me call.


Flop is 7c 2h 8d. I have top pair, and a backdoor flush draw. Nothing to get excited about, but it's probably the best hand so far.


Checked to me, and I check, hoping it will get checked around. If I bet here, everyone is going to call and depending on the turn action I might have to fold. If I like the turn, I'll probably be able to isolate someone in early position on a bluff or second best hand and get heads up.


Player to my left bets. 4 callers to me. I know the bettor tends to be an agressive player, and I figure I'm probably ahead right now, so I raise hoping for a reraise that will knock out most of the field. He just calls, making me suspect a draw (doesn't want to knock out callers), we lose the blinds anyway, and the early limpers call.


Turn is the 3s. Checked to me again. If the player to my left is on a draw, he might take a free card here, so I bet. He raises, and we lose the limpers.


The action so far is contradictory. On the flop, he didn't try to knock out the field, indicating a hand that was already way ahead or a draw. Now when he raises the turn, it could be a huge hand or a semi bluff. Since I know this guy has FPS, I'm just going to call him down. I'm either a little ahead or way behind.


The river pairs 7s. I check, he bets, I call. I show my pair, and he mucks.


When I look at the hand history, it turns out he has ATo. lol.

---------------------------

I noticed some of the responses seemed to contain an element of "this is why you don't make moves in the microlimits."


That's just wrong. The strategy adopted by the original poster just isn't going to be profitable in any game in the universe. Against a field that large, you are going to have to show down, IMO. Chances are that AT is not going to win that showdown.

One thing Bob Ciaffone emphasizes continually in both Improve Your Poker and his new book with Jim Brier, is if more than 3 people have checked the flop to you and you hold just overcards, do not bet, take a free card. This can occasionally be violated depending on special circumstances, but with 8 players checking to you, betting with overcards here is not a good idea. You can never get them all out, and you ruin the chance of someone betting into you on the turn if you catch a card that you like, so you can raise them and get it heads up.

Basically Bob says you can bet with overcards on the flop if there are only 1 or 2 people checking to you. He says 3 is marginal and depends on the texture of the flop and other factors. But definitely check along and take a free card when you only have overcards and more than 4 opponents. This is something Cloutier and McEvoy (much maligned as they may be here), also continually stress. Perhaps for much the reason as what happened in this example--- you bet and someone check raised you. I would suspect you got beat by a medium pair on the river, but you never know in these types of games. As many have mentioned before, S&M's Loose Game advice from HPFAP is "the nuts" for this type of game.


Tim

Yes, a horribly misplayed hand by me. My pennance is subjecting myself to the wrath of the forum.


On the flop, I probably bet because I thought those in front would have bet their piece of the flop (no bet=no piece) and those behind had worse hands if they did not get a piece of the flop. I will probably be more inclined to check fold in the future, hoping the field gives me a free card.


If anyone other than you (to my immediate right) had raised, I very likely would have folded. But I thought there was "a chance" (not how much of a chance) that you would play a T9 draw this way. So I called with the intention of raising the turn if you bet again. You did so I did.


My hand selection and play thus far puts me in a hard spot (for me) on the river. Will you fold for 1 more bet? Will you think I have 7's? I didn't have a reasonable grasp on how likely you were to fold. If I had remembered to think of how likely I was to be called by a hand that beats me, clearly the "correct" play was to check behind and show down the hand I thought might be ahead anyways without risking one more bet.


Your point about having to show down in a field that large is a very good one and I will try to remember it.


Thanks for all the responses.

this has scrolled way down, but in case you check it again:


Note that you should have 3 bet on the flop if you were going to play. I tried to make that point in my post.


Although with this hand I would have checked the flop, in the future you will have hands like AK with a backdoor flush draw or something here and you MUST 3 bet a raiser, or not even bet in the first place.