Seeing as how you wouldn't play it like -this- how would you play it? [Archive]

ElSapo

03-31-2004, 06:38 PM

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Hero has 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is SB

MP3 limps, Button limps, Hero limps, BB checks

Flop(4 SB): 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

I checked, looking to check-raise. But then the BB bet and everyone called and I aborted. Should've bet out?

Hero checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls

Turn(4 BB): 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Button folds, Hero calls

Another opportunity to do something besides call. And...no. I decided to check-raise if everyone folded to me, and when MP called I just called.

River(7 BB): Q/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets...

Now I bet. Makes no sense.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 06:56 PM

With a flop like this, risking a free card is too dangerous. Especially as a bet on a raggedy flop isn't always likely.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 07:06 PM

this is just one of those hands where you feel completely lost the whole time, and after the hand you just stop and think "what just happened?" I know how you feel, and it's always a result of trying to get too fancy. some thoughts:

- with top pair of 6's, you really can't check the flop unless you're trying to gain information, because if it gets checked through, you gave everyone a free card to beat a pair of 6's. however, if you're doing it for information, then when it gets back to you, you've gotten some pretty bad information, as far as your hand goes.

- I think you should either fold or raise the flop after you checked. folding is definitely a reasonable choice. you likely won't win unimproved, and you aren't getting odds to play for a 6, A, or running diamonds. the pot is small, and you might end up putting in much more of an investmen than you originally planned. I DON'T advocate raising.

- since you decided to call the flop (which I consider a mistake) I think you need to bet out. if you get raised you can safely fold, as you are likely against a straight or 2 pair. the problem with checking is that you leave yourself in the EXACT same situation as on the flop, only with much worse odds, and without top pair, and with a highly coordinated board for no PF raise

- let's say BB turned a straight. now you've done what you could've done on the turn, except you already invested 1 BB calling, and are going to fold

I'm curious: if you could do this hand all over again, what would you do?

personally, I check with the intention of raising a LP bettor, and folding if there is a bet and a call. even if you are ahead, you can be drawn out against easily, and you have very little information, so you can't be sure you're ahead. if it got checked through, then I'll bet into the 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the turn, hoping to take it down. if I got raised, I'd fold. if I got called, I'd check-call the river

this is one of those hands where I think weak-tight is the best play

ElSapo

03-31-2004, 07:19 PM

Hey Thief...

The problem, as someone pointed out, is that I've got no gaurantee that the button will bet it (or MP). So, while I like check-raising to clear out overcards, of which there are many, no gaurantee this will work. I like the CR idea, but as the other poster (and you?) noted, and as it played out, the bet may not come from the right place.

That said.

I'd probably bet the flop if I had to do it again. Bet and hope for folds. Because, really, there isn't a whole lot of cards I want to see. An ace or a six, sure, and certain diamonds, but really, if I could win with a bet that's optimal.

However.

This is Party 2/4 and if people have overcards (and they have to have them), they will call. So then I'm faced with not liking a whole lot of cards and not knowing whether or not to check-fold or bet-fold-to-a-raise, or what.

Even the bet and fold line is suspect because JK may call the flop, hit a king, and his logic goes, "why does this fool keep betting? Can he beat a king? I better just call."

So, yeah, while these players never win the maximum you'll end up paying two bets instead of one to see what they hit.

So really, it's a positional thing. I'm in the SB and so the hand, vulnerable as it is, is difficult to play. The optimal play here, I suspect, is convincing the button to swap seats for this hand.

Anyways, the seven comes on the turn and then I should bet. As cards go, that one is pretty safe. Aside from a card directly helping my hand, that 7 was a pretty good card. And still I check-call, though heads-up I'd have check-raised.

The river bet was just weird. I was prepared to fold to a raise, but that doesn't seem to make the play better.

In the end, they both folded, so it worked ok but I think the hand is so difficult b/c so many turn and river cards will look ugly and I'm out of position.

I think betting out is probably the best option here, unless the button types in the chat box "I'm betting the flop." In retrospect, I'd say a whole lot of lines are better than check/call-check/call-bet. Maybe all of them, in fact, including folding to no bet, which everyone in all of the "worst play ever" threads seems to consider the worst. This one may have been worse. I know it didn't feel rights anyways.

ElSapo

Trix

03-31-2004, 07:27 PM

I think that what should make you want to bet out on this flop is that you really dont wanna see it checked through.
The pot is also small, so you dont need to cut down peoples odds.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 07:39 PM

I'll go as far as to say check raising is definitely wrong. I'd be interested in hearing an argument in favour of it though...

Trix

03-31-2004, 07:49 PM

I think its ok if Button or MP is one of them players who always bets when checked to on the flop.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 07:55 PM

Yes but no reads are given, so how can we assume that ?

Trix

03-31-2004, 08:05 PM

You wanted an argument for check-raising, so I gave one. Without reads I would also bet this flop every time.

Trix

03-31-2004, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
personally, I check with the intention of raising a LP bettor, and folding if there is a bet and a call. even if you are ahead, you can be drawn out against easily, and you have very little information, so you can't be sure you're ahead. if it got checked through, then I'll bet into the 7 on the turn, hoping to take it down. if I got raised, I'd fold. if I got called, I'd check-call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought checking for information was for weaker hands. Checking this flop with intention of folding to a bet and a call seems like very weak tight poker to me, when playing against average 2/4 players.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 08:12 PM

Oh ic. I actually meant an argument for check raising in this particular hand/situation though.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:06 PM

ok I am assuming the opponents are loose. if they are reasonably tight, then you go ahead and bet. there's no question.

just because you might be ahead doesn't mean that you are a favorite to be ahead if your opponents are loose. I think this is one of these situations. I don't like getting involved in hands like this. it's not profitable unless you can manipulate the situation

what I mean by manipulating the situation is by getting the pot heads up. the only way to do this is check-raising. betting is likely to get called by any draw and any 2 decent overcards. if you bet and are called in 2 places, you aren't in a good situation IMO. I'd rather fold the flop than face 2 callers on the flop.

that is why I don't like betting

the reason I check is to gain information. if I can get it heads up, then I'm going to jump at that opportunity. if I let a free card slide off, it's not the end of the world, because I have a backdoor nut flush draw and 5 outs to a very strong hand.

I just feel as though it's not worth putting bets into a pot where you are both out of position, and have an extremely vulnerable. if you bet the flop, then a J or a Q slides off, how do you play it? you HAVE to bet because you can't check-call, and now you're betting middle pair with a face card out. just about every card will be scary on the turn and now you're betting a weak hand.

I really feel like I read this somewhere, and I think it was from Sklansky. maybe it was a post or maybe it's in HEFAP or TOP. please don't hold me to this, because if I'm wrong, I'd hate to claim that Sklansky made me think this way.

I just think this way makes the most sense.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:08 PM

you're right. it is weak-tight thinking, but weak-tight doesn't always mean bad

I really hope one of the big guns will chime on on this, as I wonder if there's a huge flaw in my reasoning.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think its ok if Button or MP is one of them players who always bets when checked to on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessarily true. I don't consider letting a free card slide off to be tragic in this situation. if a diamond falls, even the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I'll bet. if a 6 or A falls, I'll obviously bet. if I don't improve, then I'll check and fold, just like I planned to do on the flop

Tosh

03-31-2004, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is necessarily true. I don't consider letting a free card slide off to be tragic in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be concerned about a free card here. A6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is likely best at the moment and to give a free card to a hand that now catches a higher pair for free is not a good idea.

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 09:51 PM

I don't think a checkraise on the flop would work because you don't know where a bet is coming from, and even if the button bets, most Party 2-4 players aren't folding over cards for 2 bets on the flop.
I would bet out and hope the overcard on the turn is either a diamond or an ace.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is necessarily true. I don't consider letting a free card slide off to be tragic in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be concerned about a free card here. A6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is likely best at the moment and to give a free card to a hand that now catches a higher pair for free is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, but my point is that if 2 people are probably going to call you anyway, then your free card will help you as well as them. yes, it is likely it's the best hand, but it's not strong enough. I think the only way a free card will hurt is if a non-diamond 7, 8, 9, or 10 falls. I'm not that worried about a J, Q, or K because they might have called me anyway.

I just don't know if it's prudent to spray chips around with a hand that more often than not won't be the strongest by the end of the hand, and one that you can't maximize value with.

AceHigh

03-31-2004, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 limps, Button limps, ... I checked, looking to check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like a contradiction there, 2 players limping in late position, probably aren't ideal candidates to bet the flop of all low cards. So I would plan on betting the flop.

Still, your hand is likely best on the flop, so after you check, you should stick to the plan and check/raise the flop or plan on check/raising the turn if the turn isn't scary. Make 'em pay to suck out on you.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a checkraise on the flop would work because you don't know where a bet is coming from, and even if the button bets, most Party 2-4 players aren't folding over cards for 2 bets on the flop.
I would bet out and hope the overcard on the turn is either a diamond or an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not suggesting a check-raise. I'm just suggesting a check. the situation will dictate the next move. if they aren't going to fold to you anyway, then why are you betting out of position when there are going to be 2 overcards coming. what happens when a Q peels off on the turn? bet? you likely won't get raised by a Q. then you check the river and someone bets. now what? you call? you just spent 2 BB on the turn and river and have no clue where you're at... if I had position and it was checked to me, I'll bet. but I don't

sthief09

03-31-2004, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Still, your hand is likely best on the flop, so after you check, you should stick to the plan and check/raise the flop or plan on check/raising the turn if the turn isn't scary. Make 'em pay to suck out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

how many turn cards aren't scary? why would you check-raise the turn if no one bet the flop? what makes you believe someone will now come out firing. let's say a J comes on the turn... now you check-raise with 2nd pair? no. and the pot isn't big enough to throw in another 2 BB (turn and river) to just call. check-raising on the turn is basically just shooting in the dark, as there are 6 essentially random cards out there.

the more I argue the more I think I'm right /images/graemlins/tongue.gif but no one will ever believe me

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
even if the button bets, most Party 2-4 players aren't folding over cards for 2 bets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's safe to say that most people will fold JT or QT for 2 bets on this flop. they are bad, not retarded

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 10:02 PM

There are about 15 turn cards that aren't scary. 2 -6's, 3-A's, and 10 diamonds. Bet out to thin the field some (obviously not as much as you would like) and check the turn unless a 6 comes. Just because you bet the flop doesn't mean you have to bet the turn. If an Ace comes there is a perfect c/r situation. You can check/call any diamond, and every overcard doesn't have to hit somebody's hand. This hand has good potential to make money as long as it isn't overplayed.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 10:06 PM

You're giving them infinite odds to hit a pair above your 6, I'm sure they'd appreciate it but you need to protect this hand.

Besides who says you'll even see a turn card everytime you play this hand ?

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are about 15 turn cards that aren't scary. 2 -6's, 3-A's, and 10 diamonds. Bet out to thin the field some (obviously not as much as you would like) and check the turn unless a 6 comes. Just because you bet the flop doesn't mean you have to bet the turn. If an Ace comes there is a perfect c/r situation. You can check/call any diamond, and every overcard doesn't have to hit somebody's hand. This hand has good potential to make money as long as it isn't overplayed.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you are in agreement with me that you pretty much have to improve in order to continue with this hand. so by definition, you have a drawing hand. 2/3 of the time you will plan to check-fold the turn, so what's the point of betting? I understand that you might get everyone to fold, but I don't think this is a real enough possibility. I'd rather get a free card than bet.

let's say it was by the BB, then one of the next 2 called. would you call? I don't think it would be worth it. so the only difference between betting and calling here is that betting might win the pot without a showdown, but since that's so unlikely given your plan to check the turn unimproved, there's effectively no difference between betting and calling. if you wouldn't call, you shouldn't bet

value of betting = value of calling + chance you'll win without a showdown
as "chance you'll win without a showdown" approaches 0, the value of betting and calling become essentially even. if it's not a great idea to call, then it's probably not a great idea to bet.

but I'm just forcing myself to think abstractly here. this probably isn't what I'd do, but I really want to be convinced that this ISN'T how you should play

I've said to other people that if you are arguing against the majority, you are probably wrong. and it's probably true in this case too. I just REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be PROVEN wrong.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:20 PM

but I think even if you bet, you're probably going to have to improve to win, so why not take off a free card in an attempt to improve?

I'd really like to see a turn card before I decide to commit any chips to a pot this tiny

I guess the fact that betting gives opponents 5-1, making them mathematically wrong to call with just about anything worse than my hand, might make it worth it. I don't know if I buy this though

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 10:22 PM

No I said every overcard doesn't have to hit somebody's hand. The reason for betting is that I might get the turn checked through. If that happens, I get a free river card and get to reevaluate my situation. There is no reason to think that just because an overcard hits that my hand isn't good. The reason to bet the flop is because you are going to call a sb anyways. By betting you might get the free card on the turn. Which is what you want.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 10:29 PM

Why do you have to improve ?

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No I said every overcard doesn't have to hit somebody's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

but you said check the turn unimproved, and only check-call if I hit a diamond. just because the card doesn't hit someone's hand doesn't mean no one will bet

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for betting is that I might get the turn checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough. say it gets checked through and another overcard falls. now you check and call I guess. I agree there is SOME value in the fact that a flop bet could buy you a free showdown, but the chances of this aren't significant. if you check and call the river, you basically just spent 1.5 BB in hopes that you'll win, yet you've done nothing to actually protect the hand (I don't consider a flop bet protecting the hand, because we've decided people are going to call anyway)

[ QUOTE ]
The reason to bet the flop is because you are going to call a sb anyways. By betting you might get the free card on the turn. Which is what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok you're right. betting might get a free card (although it's not all that likely since you're in first position). but I'm not suggesting calling the flop. I'm suggesting folding the flop if there is a bet and call.

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 10:30 PM

I think this is the way to play this hand. I thought I had the best hand on the flop and I lost the minimum.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Nick B. is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Nick B. checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Nick B. bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Nick B. checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

River: (4 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Nick B. calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB
Main Pot: 7 BB, between MP2, SB and Nick B.. > Pot won by SB (7 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 8d 8s (two pair, eights and threes).
Nick B. shows Ad 6c (two pair, sixes and threes).
MP2 shows Jh Kd (one pair, threes).
Outcome: SB wins 7 BB.

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:35 PM

because otherwise you're either betting a weak hand or being a calling station. the pot really isn't big enough to justify a call if you check the turn and someone bets.

I guess you could bet the flop and bet the turn if anything but a Q or J falls. but what happens if someone calls? check-call the river? again, this is investing 2.5 BB into a pot that is 2 BB on the flop

AceHigh

03-31-2004, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you check-raise the turn if no one bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant after the BB bet on the flop just smooth-calling and figuring to check/raise the turn. This has the advantage of observing the turn action before deciding. Say a King comes off and BB bets and gets called, or raised you might be able to fold at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
let's say a J comes on the turn... now you check-raise with 2nd pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's folded back to me I would. I might fold if there are 1 or 2 callers and depending how loose I thought the caller(s) were.

[ QUOTE ]
as there are 6 essentially random cards out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No there is one random hand, the BB, and 2 limping hands that aren't good enough to raise preflop or raise the flop on a ragged board.

[ QUOTE ]
the more I argue the more I think I'm right but no one will ever believe me

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we agree that ElSapo is ahead on the flop? If so his opponents have a combined 17 outs at most (more or probably less) and some of those outs are diamonds. So we will remain ahead most of the time on the turn, (30:17).

Mike Gallo

03-31-2004, 10:39 PM

I checked, looking to check-raise. But then the BB bet and everyone called and I aborted. Should've bet out?

I would have bet out. Even though you most likely won't drive anyone out by check raising, you could have stuck with your plan and check raised.

I would have check raised the turn.

When the Queen hit the board you must have bet to represent you had a Queen. Against some opponents this work against most it will not.

Care to share your thought process through this hand? What did you put the bb on?

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
because otherwise you're either betting a weak hand or being a calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it is correct to be a calling station.

Tosh

03-31-2004, 10:40 PM

So if there's a bet on the flop and its back to you with odds of 6/1, would you fold ?

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:40 PM

losing the minimum is doing what I said, which was check the flop. it would've been checked through. then on the turn, a scare card comes off, so you could probably fold when the SB bets into you.

also, I don't like this river call. the pot is offering you 4-1, and there are 2 people behind you that will raise if they hit a 3.

Nick B.

03-31-2004, 10:45 PM

If I checked the flop and it got checked through, what makes me think that the 2c is a scare card? The sb could have been betting a high club. Somebody would have bet either a flush draw or a 5 on the flop, so I don't have any reason not to call the turn.
If I check it costs me 1 BB to see the river, when I bet out with tptk, it costs me .5BB to see the river.

Are you suggesting check/folding everytime you have tptk?

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
because otherwise you're either betting a weak hand or being a calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it is correct to be a calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. however, I don't think being a calling station in a small pot is correct. I either want to be the bettor or not be involved.

if you can make a case for playing the hand aggressively, I might buy it. but betting the flop, then giving up if unimproved isn't worth it

sthief09

03-31-2004, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if there's a bet on the flop and its back to you with odds of 6/1, would you fold ?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. I'm out of position, and I think I'll be forced to fold a winner or call a loser too often.

as I wrote to Nick B., I don't think playing this weakly is the best play. if you can make a case for aggressively playing this hand, then I might buy it.

sorry I'm being so stubborn here. I'm not convinced one way or another, I just enjoy debating situations like this