Me and HEFAP again

[Guido]

I was reading HEFAP again and I don't get the following example:

You start with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and on fourth street the board is K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Now I asume I'm in the blind and HEFAP says it is usually right to check and call. Is this because you might be behind but you have 4 good outs. And when you still have the best hand you might end second best on the river?

Normally I would bet out on the flop with a board like this when I'm in the blind. Is this wrong? If so why? Because somebody might have a better kicker? But you don't know that and are not going to find out by checking and calling. Now suppose you bet out on the flop and 3 people call. On the turn you have 2 pair. I would normally bet out again. I might have the best hand and I don't want to give a free card. When I am behind I will know soon enough but I still have outs so why does HEFAP say you should check and call most of the time? Please enlighten me...

Thanks,

Guido

[Thomsen]

i think its because you want to go to showdown with it as cheap as possible.

[Guido]

Why? Who said I want a showdown? Sometimes you can win it right here... When I fill up I certainly don't want a cheap showdown /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Guido

[sthief09]

what page? I want to see what context this comes in

[blackaces13]

But you fill up less than 1 in 10 times.

[Guido]

page 290 questions and answers

Guido

[Guido]

I know but that's where the /images/graemlins/grin.gif stands for.

[PokerBob]

Maybe because your bet will not drive out a flush draw but a raise probably means you are beat. Giving AK a free card isn't the worst cuz they are drawing slim. If the club comes on the river, you can check and make the crying call and lose only one bet.

[Trix]

I would think that it depends of the actions before the turn. Fx. if someone coldcalled on the flop, its a pretty good indicater of a flushdraw.

[sthief09]

I think he's saying to check/call because if you bet and are raised, you CAN'T lay this hand down, and paying 2 BB on a hand where you are fairly certain you're beat is tragic, even though you have 4 outs.

this seems to be a passive approach to the situation, but this is assuming your opponents will call the flop with reasonable hands. and when a number of opponents call a flop like this, there's a good chance someone has made a flush.

but I'm a big confused myself... sorry I couldn't help

[Saborion]

That's something I've been wondering about a bit as well.
They do answer that question in the book though. If I recall correct, you don't want to bet, because if you're behind you'll be raised, and you'll regret that bet since you "have" to call due to your outs. On the other hand, if you're not behind, do you really want to give a free card? I think this is one depends a lot on whether or not you put a player on a flush draw on the flop. As Trix said, if someone cold-called the flop, it might be better to check-call the turn instead.

[Jezebel]

This is the "check with outs, bet with no outs" concept. The idea is that when the turn brings in the flush, it is a scare card for everyone at the table. The amount of "scare" is directly proportional to the number of opponents still in the hand, so this concept becomes much more applicable in a multiway pot vs. headsup. If you bet the turn and are raised by a typical opponent, you can deduce that you are likely up against a flush, since your opponent may be unwilling to raise with less figuring that you or someone behind him may have the flush. In short, betting this turn should provide us with information about our opponents hand. If we hold a hand that is drawing dead to a made flush, then this information is valuable because we can lay the hand down with confidence. Hands such as an overpair have zero river outs to beat a flush, so betting out and folding to a raise is a viable play. (i.e. betting with no outs).
However, if we hold a hand that has a few outs that can beat a made flush (2 pair for example), then betting out can put us in a bind. If we are raised, we can assume we are up against a flush and it is unlikely that we will have the pot odds to call the raise to draw at our 4 outer and must therefore fold. For example, lets say the pot has 4bb in on the turn. We bet out and get raised. The pot is now laying us 7 to 1, which is short of the required 11-1 to call for our 4 outer, so we must now fold unless we pin our chances on our opponent bluffing. What we have done is charged ourself to draw and given up infinite pot odds to draw for our full house. Notice the situation would be different if we held a set. Now we have 10 outs and could correctly call a raise since we are now a 4-1 shot and the pot is laying us 7-1. Betting the turn with our set in hindsight is still an error, if in fact we were behind a flush, but we don't have to throw our hand away due to the error.
Don't worry so much about giving free cards to a flush draw when there are 3 of the suit on the board. You are not going to stop a flush draw from coming and you may run into a made flush. Its the classic situation where you are not sure if you need to prevent free cards or if you need a free card yourself. Having a read on your opponent helps in these situations. If you bet to prevent free cards, it should be to prevent overcards, middle pairs, gutshot draws, etc. In the example provided, none of these present much of an issue so "giving" a free card is not a terrible play. I know this forum constantly preaches about the horrors of free cards, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
The "check with outs, bet with no outs" concept is much more important and easier to see in No-Limit than it is in Limit, but can be just as useful. Hope this helps.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Ok, so we only have 4 outs. Let us assume on the turn there are 4BB. If one of the players behind us bets, what do we do? Since we checked here, someone could semi-bluff w/ a flush draw on the turn here. So in this situation, do we just check/fold if we don't have the pot odds (or implied odds) to call? If we call, and we don't catch our out, are we still in a check/call or check/fold situation? /images/graemlins/confused.gifThis just seems like a really weak-tight way to play, that is usually not advocated by this forum.

[BugsBunny]

I would check/call all the way here. You lose the minimum if you're behind but win close to the max if you're ahead.

You can't fold because you *may* have the best hand. But you also don't want to get raised because you may be behind. If you catch one of your outs on the river then you bet/raise.

[ZootMurph]

I'm sorry to interrupt this thread to ask what will probably be a really stupid question: What is HEFAP?

Thanks!

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
Let us assume on the turn there are 4BB. If one of the players behind us bets, what do we do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, if it is only one bet back to us. Our check does imply weakness, which may induce a bluff out of our opponent. (which is good for us if he holds a lesser hand) The combination that our hand may be good + outs to improve + pot odds allows us to call the bet. If we lead out and get raised then the odds of our hand being good go way down and calling another BB becomes less correct if not wrong. It is now much less likely to be a bluff. Since we have a hand that can improve to beat a flush, betting for information does little good since the information we gain does not give us a clear direction on how to play the rest of the hand.
When deciding to bet this turn we need to think what it is we are trying to accomplish. Our bet could be to:
1) Gain Information - possibly a viable option if we can lay the hand down to a raise. In the 2 pair case, that is not our best option
2) Prevent Free Cards - What free cards are we going to prevent? Flush draws are coming, overcards are not a big issue, and no straight draws available. Add to the mix that we are not sure if in fact WE are the one who needs the free card and betting to prevent free cards seems to be a stretch.
3)Bet for value - Your bet will be called by flush draws, but other hands that you dominate and most likely don't mind being in the hand with you may fold to your EP bet. If you check they may bluff back into you, thereby gaining your value bet without exposing yourself to a raise. Your opponent may also bluff at you again on the river, where they may have folded the river if you bet out on the turn. Depending on how many opponents you have in on the turn, your hand may be drawing slim to slight favorite. Betting for value could be pretty thin.
4) Force other hands out - the only hands that will fold are the ones you don't mind staying in.

[ QUOTE ]
If we call, and we don't catch our out, are we still in a check/call or check/fold situation?

[/ QUOTE ]
Most likely check/call if a blank falls. Bet or checkraise if we hit our out. Check/fold if a fourth suit falls.

[ QUOTE ]
This just seems like a really weak-tight way to play, that is usually not advocated by this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the general advice you will hear is to stay aggressive, which is usually correct. However, there are times that checking a "big" hand is correct. Poker is never so simple as saying always bet or always raise. If so, everyone would be a winner.

Also keep in mind that HEPFAP advise that this line of play is not as strong against tricky opponents that will semi-bluff raise a flush draw. Knowing your opponents helps with deciding how to play any hand.

[BugsBunny]

Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by Sklansky/Malmuth

See the "abbreviations" link in the right hand side column under the "Directory" subheading.

[Bob T.]

I wonder if this is one of the situations, that you might play differently if you are playing 2-4 on party, as opposed to 30-60 at the Bellagio.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if this is one of the situations, that you might play differently if you are playing 2-4 on party, as opposed to 30-60 at the Bellagio.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very sensible. Most of your $ at party comes from people calling with this kind of board and holding 2nd or 3rd pair.

I was surprised to read M+S's recommendation to check/call this at any level though. I would think the desire to knock out (or charge) hands like T /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif would trump fear of losing an extra bet in the unlikely case that somebody just hit a flush. That said, I ain't played a day of 30/60 in my life, and don't plan to anytime soon.

[sthief09]

I'm fairly certain he was being fecetious.

with a board coordinated only by a flush draw, and a TOUGH opponents calling the flop, then it's much more likely that you're beat than if you are against players who will call the flop with bottom pair or a lone ace.

the book is great because it forces you to THINK in situations like this. it just isn't all that practical for the games we play though. for those of us with aspirations of moving up one day, it's critical that we consider situations like this.

in general, if you are going to get called by crap, you should bet, and if your opponents play loosely, then it's difficult to be completely confident in any range of hands that he/she might have

Guido, please keep up questions like this. thinking about things we previously hadn't considered is the only way to get better.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe because your bet will not drive out a flush draw but a raise probably means you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
So why not charge them? They aren't going to fold anyway...

[ QUOTE ]
Giving AK a free card isn't the worst cuz they are drawing slim.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, why not charge them if they call anyway? I don't think AK would be in a hand like this though... Or at least I wouldn't be.

[ QUOTE ]
If the club comes on the river, you can check and make the crying call and lose only one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that's a smart move. I would check-fold, somebody must have a flush...

Guido

[Guido]

I know, this is a also very important. But when it goes like I discribed it I didn't understand it completely. I knew some advantages and some disadvantages but Jezebel explained it very well IMO.

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

Hi Jezebel,

Thanks for both your posts. Well explained and a nice summery of all the advantages and disadvantages of both plays. I will first respont to this post.

[ QUOTE ]
so this concept becomes much more applicable in a multiway pot vs. headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably true but in that case it's more likely that the pot has around 6 or 7BB on the turn. I which case a bet, perhaps 1 call and a raise do provide sufficient odds to call. So the odds don't give an answer to the question bet or check the turn because most of the time we can call a raise IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Its the classic situation where you are not sure if you need to prevent free cards or if you need a free card yourself. Having a read on your opponent helps in these situations. If you bet to prevent free cards, it should be to prevent overcards, middle pairs, gutshot draws, etc. In the example provided, none of these present much of an issue so "giving" a free card is not a terrible play. I know this forum constantly preaches about the horrors of free cards, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the general advice you will hear is to stay aggressive, which is usually correct. However, there are times that checking a "big" hand is correct. Poker is never so simple as saying always bet or always raise. If so, everyone would be a winner.


[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I couldn't agree more.

Very good post, thanks!

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if this is one of the situations, that you might play differently if you are playing 2-4 on party, as opposed to 30-60 at the Bellagio.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so /images/graemlins/grin.gif but I've never played in a real Casino... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Guido

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
the book is great because it forces you to THINK in situations like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very true...

[ QUOTE ]
those of us with aspirations of moving up one day, it's critical that we consider situations like this.


[/ QUOTE ]
THAT'S ME!!! My bankroll is almost big enough to move to 3/6 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif, one month ahead of schedule /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
Guido, please keep up questions like this. thinking about things we previously hadn't considered is the only way to get better.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will do my best...

Thanks,

Guido