commerce 30-60 question for andy

the 15 and 20 games there are alarmingly good. ive started playing commerce much more although i still have a soft spot for the extra soft 15 games at hp.


i earned 100 big bets last night at 20-40 just playing solid normal aggressive poker. ive been running over these games with little exception for several weeks. many of these people play like they are literally mentally retarded. is it just as fishy at the commerce 30 and 40 games in general or am i much more likely to run into trouble and tricky tight players up there?


hopefully youll answer, im sure it would be to your benefit if i sit in your game.

I can't speak for the games at night as I rarely play at night. I know the 20 games do indeed resemble a yellow blizzard. Congrats on the big win; I never won that much in a 20-40 game.


During the day, the 30 game is easiest in the morning and tends to get tougher with the early afternoon players. The 40 game, in my judgment, is actually an easier game, but of course your swings will be larger due to A) the larger stakes and B) the looser players. And sometimes there are some very tough players in the 40 waiting for the 80 game to start. But in general, it seems to me a softer game than the 30.


There is a much bigger difference between the 30 game and the 20 than between the 20 game and the 15. There are a lot of very aggressive players at the 30 level and higher, and a lot more sophisticated players. It's 3 bets pre-flop a much greater portion of the time in the 30, and those loose call, call, callers are less abundant. The turn is particularly aggressive compared to the 20. A much smaller percentage of the players chop too, so you've got to be a better head-up player as well.


Keep in mind I rarely play more than twice a week and I rarely play more than 4 hours at a time, so you shouldn't take what I'm saying here as gospel.

Maybe someone else can verify/correct my impressions.


Why not take a shot for one rack of brown chips in the 30 and see what you think of the game? There's no requirement that you stay there is you prefer to go back to the 20. You might look for some of the weaker 20 players who are playing in the 30 and then follow them. Of course, there are frequently must move games, so there's no guarantee you'll get into the correct game.


[I remember I once was stuck 2 racks in the 15 without winning one pot and noticed, in the 20 game, a player I thought was the biggest fish I had ever seen. So I went to the 20 and after 10 minutes I realized I had the wrong guy. The game was in actuality far tougher than the 15 I had left. So of course I won 3 racks in 2 hours.]


Good luck, Mike.

Mike -


I've dabbled in all the games that you've mentioned here, and there is a fairly substantial world of difference between these games...the 30 is, as Andy stated, significantly more aggressive than either yellow chip game. I know that when it's my blind, I am rather petrified when UTG or UTG+1 limps, if they are good, because I know that there is strength in them thar hands...strength that I fear greatly.


I'd also say that the importance of position goes up exponentially with limits....I'm not sure if that is a sound assessment or not, but in my (very) limited experience, that's the case.


I imagine that if you keep your head on straight, you ought to be able to have a decent amount of success there, though. But beware that the 30 is more than 1.5 times as big as the 20...it's at least twice as big...more hands per hour (marginal), and much more aggressive.


There. I've sufficiently repeated Andy, so now I'll be off. Good luck, and let us know how you do.


Josh

thanks for the great and detailed advice again guys. i think ill stick around the 15 and 20 for awhile. if you see a fat kid sitting over there with about 5 racks in front of him and a worried look on his face, that's me, come say hi.

I have heard that the Commerce has Pot-limit games. Does anyone have info on these games - Blinds spread/buy in requirements/number of tables etc. I would appreciate any first hand information. Thank you.


-Zeno

Don't know the details of the pot limit game, next time I'm in I'll inquire.

At Commerce, there's a strange phenomenon in which the multiple-of-20 games (20/40, 40/80) are loose and frequently profitable, while the 15 games (like 15/30, 30/60) are generally tighter than a frog's ass.


If you're enjoying success at 20/40, then you should stay there. If you're going to consider making the move up to 30/60, you might just want to jump up to the 40 game.


-Druff

of course i completely ignored your advice and say right down in a 30 game there hours after reading your posts. silly me.


luckily the game was actually pretty good and i picked up some nice hands that did nice things after the flop. won $2500 which made me pretty happy and then stepped down to 20-40. i was in a must move game which had some compulsive gambling A2C types and some players that were okay but didnt seem to have any sort of formal training (i.e.: they havent read hpfap, top, etc 200 times each like us, nor do they dwell on the play of hands here everyday). im finding this sort of advanced training in the game is giving me an almost unfair edge at the midlimit tables.


plus im running very good right now.

Cool! I replied to the hands you posted on the middle stakes forum.


Just curious: how was the player behavior? Were they more abusive, less abusive or about the same?


Andy

haha funny you mention it. there was this crusty old guy with sunglasses. he had entitlement disease, it was out in the open for everyone to see and kinda pathetic. he was such a sourpuss both in appearance and attitude! it was actually quite comical to most of the players there.


at one point he called the dealer a "miserable c*cksucker", threw his cards, and refused to play for the rest of that dealers down. there were also several comments like "what the hell are you doing? deal the damn cards!" i felt so sorry for the dealer i almost tipped him once. almost.


oh yeah this gentleman sourpuss also had to call the floor over when a debate ensued as to who deserved the extra chip in a split pot he was in. when the ruling went against him he growled "the lunatics are running the asylum". i completely agreed with him and echoed his every angry sentiment although i could hardly do so with a straight face and i think he realised i was mocking him.


there was a completely on tilt out of control horrid playing drunk iranian dude at my 20-40 last night as well. my favorite quote from him was when he yelled at an opponent who showed his second best hand "i had a ten too, you mother f*cker!" i almost fell out of my seat LOL. (im pretty easily amused as you can see). im really enjoying the company of all of these vehemently angry old men. lots of fun.

"had to call the floor over when a debate ensued as to who deserved the extra chip in a split pot"


Used to be they actually split the chip; now they use bridge suits to determine who gets the extra chip, which is, IMO, ludicrous. They don't determine who should get the pot by suits, why should they determine who gets the extra chip by suits? I assume they did it to speed up play, but half the time the guys have mixed up their cards or mucked them by the time the dealer realized there's an extra chip, and a discussion does ensue.


Anyway, sounds like there are just as many jerks in the 20-40 as in the 30-60.


"miserable c*cksucker": Is there any other kind?

I think this is common at most casinos, where the 4-chip games like 20-40, 4-8, etc. have considerably more "action" and gambling types than the 15-30, 3-6. I'm not sure exactly why this is but i guess it would be due to the pots mathematically 25% bigger, which causes people to call for "pot-size", which causes the pots to get even larger, turning it into a cycle. Also, it's the same color chips but more of it, which causes steamers to lose even more quickly and rushers to play their rush even more strongly. I saw a couple 2+ rack pots in the 20-40 yesterday, but i havent seen a rack and a half+ pot in the 15-30 in quite some time. Anyone noticing this as well and have any thoughts on it?


DN

I played this weekend in a game I am new to (2d weekend in it) and observed the opposite phenomenon. The game started as 15-30, but was bumped to 20-40 at the request of several players. I was a little uncomfortable with the stakes but didn't object (one objection would have kept it at 15-30)and played anyway. The game kept going overnight with some players leaving then coming back. I played for a long time the next day and we switched back to 15-30 around midnight. We did it because the game was dying at 20-40. An action player or two left and replacements were hard to come by. When we switched back we got a couple of more players and the pots got bigger. Players had tightened up at 20-40. The game was also more passive at 15-30, maybe because people didn't have as much a raise or fold mentality. A few of us discussed it and thought it might be a better idea to keep the game at 15-30 in the future. Granted this was in a more limited poker market than LA or Las Vegas, but Bellagio seems to get a lot more 15-30 than Mirage 20-40.

Not much scientific evidence here, but some speculation:


Where I play, 15-30 and 20-40 use the same chips ($5 chips). There's a separate room for the "top section"; 15-30 is the smallest game there. So a player looking for "action" who plays "yellow chips" ($5 chips) will move up to the 20-40. Thus more action players in 20-40 than 15-30.


30-60 and 40-80 use $10 chips. So the same phenomenon may be at work. There seems to be, as well, a bigger group of players in the 15-30 and 30-60 who are satisfied playing at that level, while at 20-40, there seems to be a bunch waiting to play 30-60, and thus they play fast and loose at the lower stake. Likewise in the 40-80, there are players waiting to play 80-160.


I've always felt the 2nd highest limit in a club is usually a tougher game than the highest limit. While the 15-30 and 30-60 don't qualify as the 2nd highest limit in the club, they do qualify as the 2nd highest limit at the chip-color level, and the chip-color levels seem to be distinct sections within the cardroom.


In theory, at least, one would think the 15-30 and 30-60 would be slightly better games as many small blinds limp for one chip where they don't in the 20-40 and 40-80. I believe Mason has written an essay, or section of an essay on this, don't remember which book it appears in.

HDPM,


I think Andy nailed it below. At the Commerce and Hollywood Park the 15/30 and 20/40 games are side by side. In Las Vegas you need to go down the street to play in a $5 chip game with the different blind structures.


Regards,


Rick

Andy,


There is little doubt that the 15/30 games at Hollywood Park and the Commerce are tighter and less aggressive than the nearby 20/40 games. Whether they are better or worse depends on how well you play in each type of game.


In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I think because the 15/30 is the lowest limit of "top section"** a lot of players who can barely afford it and despise the per pot collection and jackpot drop and want to be "top section" players tend to play at that limit. Mason's theory (which I think is otherwise valid) on the 2/3 small blind making a game looser and more aggressive is overwhelmed by these other factors in Los Angeles.


** The 10/20 at Hollywood is a special case. That game is moderately tight and somewhat passive and very social.


Regards,


Rick

first off i flopped a set of 8s in a capped 7 way pot at 20-40 the other night. capped on the flop 5 or 6 way. some guy turned his gutshot and i didnt fill up. the pot was $1700. biggest 20-40 pot ive ever seen. i must admit i was almost in tears after that loss.


anyway, yeah the pots at 20-40 appear huge even if theyre medium size. people tend to play a little more aggro at 20 i think as well. the 15 game at commerce is like the softest easiest game in the world.

I asked about the pot limit today. I was told the buy-in minimum is $400 and they play with two blinds, $10 and $20. The game is rarely going during the day, but usually is going at night. The floorman seemed unsure about the $400 buy-in, but seemed more positive about the blind structure.


Not quite first-hand information, but hope it helps.

Thanks Andy. That helps.


-Zeno

You can't compare the games in Vegas because I think Bellagio just holds a lot more cachet among the tourists. Mirage games tend to get a lot of people that just bitch about the management of the Bellagio, which means a ton of locals. Besides there are fewer games, you end up playing the same people a lot in the Mirage. I think those factors make a comparison impossible. However I will say that 10-20 is a poor game often just for "looks". Two chips/four chips just never makes the pot look big. One guy I talk to say sometimes he intentionally bets with blues just to make the pot look a little better. Problem is the dealers take the blues out most of the time if you bet them too much. So I think much of it is psychology. The bigger "looking" pots get more action and that explains much of the difference in a nutshell. There are certainly other factors like where the livest players choose to play and what the next level up and down is to determine if you get higher players splashing chips around or tighter players looking to pick up a rack and leave when they aren't comfortable with the limit. One thing though I would suggest never never never doing is voting for a higher limit game. All that does is make bad players play tighter. They know they are long run losers so they play tighter just to make sure they can stay in action as long as they could before.