Fruit plate or Fur coat?

[pudley4]

Live 6/12 (Canterbury). Friday afternoon, a few tighties, a few loosies, no crazies yet.

EP limps, new tightish MP raises. Couple of loosies call (including button - he's too loose preflop, but decent postflop). SB calls. I call in BB with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. EP calls.

6 to the flop for 12 sb

Flop:

J /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to MP, he bets. LP calls, button raises. He likes to raise both made hands and draws. SB calls, I 3bet, EP folds, MP 4bets (cap is 5 bets). LP folds, button calls, SB folds, I call.

3 to the turn for 13 bb (after rake)

Turn: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, MP calls, button calls. 3 to the river for 16 BB

River: 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, MP calls, button looks at me and says "I have to raise."

I raise/call/fold?

[PokerBob]

You haev to call and expect to be shown a set or AJ.

[schwza]

well, raising is wrong. i would call here, but i think that a lot of others will say to muck it. you're getting something like 20:1 and i think if MP had you beat he would have raised the turn. button could be T9 or a slowplayed (sort of) set, but i think it's worth the call for the huge pot.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
You haev to call and expect to be shown a set or AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that you must call here (getting about 20:1), I find AJ pretty unlikely.

I'm going to guess button hit his straight on the river with T9.

A set (either on the flop or maybe even with 77) is a possibility, if slowplaying the turn is in his arsenal.

[Bob T.]

I usually make the crying call here, but that 'I have to raise', is pretty ominous.

My only question is, if you were going to lead the turn on a blank, why didn't you cap it on the flop?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually make the crying call here, but that 'I have to raise', is pretty ominous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about this, too. Is "I have to raise" an "I'm strong" statement or an "I'm weak" statement?

Tell-wise, at the low limits I've found river raises accompanied by "what the hell" or "let's gamble" type comments--basically, anything that "justifies" the raise--to generally mean very strong hands. You know, the whole "weak when strong" thing.

I'm just not sure what his "I have to raise" means. Is he acting weak or strong? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

If he's going to throw off tells, he could at least let us know what they mean! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MRBAA]

He's got you beat here. Absolutely. Call and there will be one time in 10 you'll be wrong, win the pot, and this call will be hugely profitable.

I don't think I bet this river with multiple opponents, btw.

[Bob T.]

My experience has been, 'I have to raise' means something like, most people won't believe that I played this far, and sucked out this bad with this piece of cheese, but I did, and I did, so you have to pay, but I am apoligizing in advance by saying 'I have to raise'. The problem is, he might have made some real bad two pair, and you can beat that, so I usually make the crying call. Also, if my opponent is the kind to chase real far, with not much, I probably have a fairly good chance of winning the money back sometime in the near future.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

If you bet the river (especially at CP), you will get called by all kinds of one pair hands, sometimes there will even be overcallers.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Pudley,

You, and everybody who's responded, are overlooking the most important aspect of this hand. Don't even think or worry about these river situations until you get down your flop play. You have to bet this flop, Pudley. You absolutely MUST bet out on this flop. It's not even close. River situations that may cost or gain you small fraction of a big bet should not be your focus until you can learn the how's and why's of flop play, where you can lose or gain full big bets and also set yourself up for easier (or more difficult) decisions on later streets.

Talk to me,

GoT

GoT

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
My only question is, if you were going to lead the turn on a blank, why didn't you cap it on the flop?



[/ QUOTE ]

MP would play an overpair, AJ, or a set this way up until my 3 bet. His flop 4bet makes it a lot more likely that he has JJ (or 88). His response to my turn bet (call or raise) will tell me whether he's got me beat or not, so there's no sense throwing in an extra flop bet when I think I'm behind.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet this flop, Pudley. You absolutely MUST bet out on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why betting the flop is immensely better than checkraising. First of all, we can agree that the pot is large enough that no flush draw, no OESD, and no J will fold on the flop. Gutshots aren't folding for one or two bets either. So whether I bet or checkraise, all those hands will still be in until at least the turn. The decision then becomes "How do we make them pay the most?" If MP is on overcards, he's not raising my flop bet; however, he'll most likely bet if checked to, and I can get a raise in. So I thought it was more likely that I could checkraise and get 2 bets in, than I could bet, get raised, and then 3bet.

Plus, notice that the way I played my hand, it appears I have a club draw. If I can get the pot heads up, it gives me another way to win against a semi-thinking player (if the clubs come in). I'm also slightly more likely to get paid off by a single pair when the flush doesn't come in.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, he might have made some real bad two pair, and you can beat that, so I usually make the crying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the board, or my hand, was different, I'd tend to agree. However, the only 2 pair hands he could have that I beat are 83, 74, and 73. It sure looke like the 7 helped him, so that means he'd have 74 or 73 (both clubs). While they are possible hands, he's not raising them on the river; he'd be too concerned about a higher 2 pair or a set.

[37offsuit]

I've found this from players who, after a long session together and some comrodery(sp?) feel bad about rivering you so they actually apologize when they make their hand.

[pudley4]

I hate laying down on the river for one more bet. I'm one of those who looks at the title of a post like "Should I fold this set on the river" and thinks "No!" before I even read the post. The vast majority of the time it's wrong. However, there are times where it is correct (although it's been a long long time since I did).

Remember these two points:

1-When your opponent bets (raises) and he knows you'll call, he isn't bluffing.
2-A protected pot - when a player is in the pot who is going to call, your other opponent who bets into you isn't bluffing.

This pot was big, so I have to call (1). The tighty has already called one river bet, so he's going to call another (2). If you're the button, what's the minimum hand you'd have that you'll raise with here? 87? J7? a set (J's, 8's, 7's)?

I folded. Button shows T9. Tighty has AJ.

Mmmmm, fruit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded. Button shows T9. Tighty has AJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Tighty needs a new nickname, at least for his postflop play. TPTK no g00t!

PS-Gloat gloat gloat for guessing Button's hand correctly.

[maurile]

After two days, the title of this thread just registered with me. (But shouldn't it be a shrimp cocktail (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31)?)