Fighting fuzzy thinking @ the Borgata $6-$12

[Mike Gallo]

I had the following hand last night at the Borgata at a $6-$12 game.

I had poster/lurker Swimfan two to my left and poster Avid directly to my right. Other than them we did not have a good player at the table.

I decided to post this hand because I wanted the forums opinions on all streets. I will post the results later on.

Preflop everyone but Avid and Swimfan limp to me in the small blind and I complete with J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif Six players saw the flop.

Flop comes 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I flopped a straight against a flush/flush draw. Check bet or check raise?* Flame away because I decided a check raise might have worked best here.

I checked, an overaggressive player bet the action got folded to a middle position player who called. I raised the original bettor folded the cold caller called. A note about this player. He could have any hand. He played any two cards from any position. He could have easily had an overpair as he could have had the flush.

3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet my opponent raised me. What should I do, reraise call or fold?

If I call what course of action should I take on the river if a heart does not fall?

[BottlesOf]

A note about this player. He could have any hand. He played any two cards from any position. He could have easily had an overpair as he could have had the flush.

Which player is this? The original bettor who folded or the MP who was the villain in this hand?
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I like the flop check raise.

I feel great about your turn bet. I hate that turn raise, but he definitely could be drawing or have something else. I think if you pop him back on the turn, he'd probably call a pair/2 pr/set, but with the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, would he be crazy enough to cap it? I don't know if I could 3-bet fold to a cap here, esp. b/c I'm not sure of the read on this opponent, as I found it fuzzy in your original post. That, and I think 3-betting folding to a cap sounds like a bad idea in general. Therefore, I'm leaning towards calling his turn raise and seeing what the river brings.

On the river, I'm check calling a heart, and betting a non-heart. I think check-raising a non-heart on the river is too risky.

Edit: Actually, given how a check-raise is interepreted by many people with less than sophisticated knowledge of the game, I think check calling the river regardless of what falls, may be better.

[bunky9590]

Aggressive player raised you? Well, I'm sliding into call down mode. I'm going to show him a hand here, pray he doesn't have the flush.

BTW, I woudl have bet the flop, but then again, I usually bet the flop.

Sorry I missed the gang. Couldn't make it down.

[Homer]

MG, when deciding whether to bet out or check-raise the flop, consider the position of the aggressive players relative to you. If they are on your left, bet out and hope to be raised. If they are on your right (that is, late position), go for the check-raise.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

You guys should listen to this Homer fellow more. He knows what he's talking about.

[Joe Tall]

My line of play here would have been to bet the flop, hope to call a raise. Then check-raise the turn if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif didn't fall if I knew the flop-raiser would bet.

The line you took is fine, check-raising this flop. For sure you could put the cold call on a high- /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Re-raise the turn. Can you fold to a 4-bet? Not yet, check-call the river. A holding of high- /images/graemlins/heart.gifTx could play this turn like this putting your flop check-raise on a flush draw.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Mike Gallo]

The player who played over aggressively folded. The any two cards player called the raise and raised the turn.

I thought about it and decided to call. I figured he would reraise with a flush or fold two pair.

River brought a brick. I check called and he tabled Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Would anyone consider folding the river after he called a flop check raise raised the turn and bet the river? His actions told me I had the loser.

I think Joe Tall's line of play works best in this spot. Reraise and fold to a reraise.

*After the hand Avid told me he noticed me reach for chips and then check.

[Mike Gallo]

Aggressive player raised you?

The aggressive player folded. An unknown player raised me.

[Mike Gallo]

Re-raise the turn. Can you fold to a 4-bet?

I like this line of play.

[Joe Tall]

I know it sounds dumb because call + check/call = showdown. But I think I know I've gotten more out of re-raise, they call, I bet they call than folding to that 4-bet against such opponents. It take a read to make such a fold.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Mike Gallo]

I expected a player in late position to bet if it got checked to him.

I did not think one of the players in early position would bet. He claims he had A 10 and I believe him. He put me on a set.

[Mikey]

Mike this is what you have to think about.

when he raised your bet on the turn. You "knew" let me say again, you "knew" you were beat.

You know why I knew you knew you were beat..... because you called.

If you knew folding was the best play, then pitch that junk away.

Don't call because the book says to call, or that you hear voices from 2+2 saying, ohh, well you have to call there because the odds are xxxx to 1 that he flopped a flush and you are getting xxxx to 1 from the pot.

[Joe Tall]

MG's hand beside,

If they are on your left, bet out and hope to be raised. If they are on your right (that is, late position), go for the check-raise.


Not always, I have no reason to drive out callers in certain situations. In fact, if the aggressor is to my immidate left, all more reason to check.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Homer]

Not always, I have no reason to drive out callers in certain situations. In fact, if the aggressor is to my immidate left, all more reason to check.

I'm not sure what you're reasoning is here. Why are you looking to check-raise the field and build a big pot. Don't you want to use the aggressor to face the field with two bets and drive out small-medium hearts?

-- Homer

[Mike Gallo]

Mikey,
You know why I knew you knew you were beat..... because you called.

I called because I felt I had a 50% chance of having the the best hand.

If you knew folding was the best play, then pitch that junk away.

Not so cut and dry. If I make the wrong "read" too often when I have the correct odds to call, I will become a break even player at best. Against this opponent I did not know if he had the flush or not.

ohh, well you have to call there because the odds are xxxx to 1 that he flopped a flush and you are getting xxxx to 1 from the pot.

Against an unknown opponent that I do not have a line of play on, I find this the best way to play the hand. If I had a better "feel" for his play I could confidently make that laydown. However too many players in this particular game liked to bluff.

[Joe Tall]

"MG's hand beside"

I was just making it clear that your statement is good, but not an end-all SOP for c/r.

If you read my original post, I say he should bet out.

Just a misunderstanding,
Joe Tall

[Homer]

Okay, I get you now. Thanks for clearing that up.

-- Homer