20-40 hand

[Clarkmeister]

UTG limps. UTG is best described as "college kid who plays with his buddies and maybe plays casino poker once in a blue moon" No real read on him yet, he seems a little loose and not overly aggressive.

I then raise with ThTd. Folded to the BB. BB is an sporadically aggressive, but thinking guy who is a little fishy. He 3-bets. This means something pretty decent, not necessarily just AA and KK but those are definitely possible. UTG coldcalls, I 4-bet and both call. 3 to the flop for 6.25BBs.

Flop: Js 7c 3d. BB checks, UTG now bets.

[MRBAA]

You raised and took it from there?

[Nightwish]

Hmmm....no real draws out there. Does UTG have AJ? Since you're not going to lay it down, I would raise and put some pressure on the BB. I'd like to see him fold his AK/AQ, if that's what he has. If he calls two cold or (gulp) re-raises, you're almost certainly beat. Same if UTG re-raises.

[Clarkmeister]

Maybe, maybe not. I'm looking for thoughts.

[Ulysses]

I don't think it really matters here. UTG probably has either a small/medium pocket pair or something like JTs. Maybe a set, I guess. BB is either going for a checkraise or he's not.

I think folding is fine. I think raising is fine. I think calling and seeing if BB was going for a checkraise is fine. By default, I'd raise, unless I thought UTG probably has a Jack, in which case I'd fold.

What I find more interesting is the fact that at this very moment I'm eating mashed potatoes with chopsticks.

[cwl]

i would probably raise the flop hoping to get BB to fold AK or AQ if thats what he's got and hoping to get to a cheap showdown against the bettors very likely J. if the BB check raises the both of us i think he would have probably convinced me that he has a big pair but at that point i would call the 1 additional bet hoping for a T and likely fold the turn to a bet, especially if UTG is coming along for all that betting.

if the BB folds and UTG doesnt 3 bet i would be planning to bet the turn check the river or check the turn call the river, depending a bit on how UTG plays and how much of a wuss i feel like.

if UTG 3 bets or leads the turn i would wish really really hard that he hadnt done that.

[Joe Tall]

That's one very uncoorinated board and a lot of preflop action for UTG to just bet into the preflop 4-better. I think I have to give him credit for a Jack here and fold.

If there is any doubt that he is capable of taking a stab here, it's an easy raise this is tough without a read.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[mike l.]

"Flop: Js 7c 3d. BB checks, UTG now bets."

you lose. but you dont fold cause your backdoor this and that and some joker 4 bet it with TT so now there's 13.5 bets in there. call, but be ready to press eject on the turn.

please dont tell me you raised cause that just stinks.

[bunky9590]

All right Clarky, let me have a crack at it.

With UTG not being overly aggressive and a "college kid" I would like to know if he is acpable of laying down a Jack there to a preflop 4 bet and a flop raise with something like QJ or JT, if he is, I pop him one more time on the flop. If BB check raises, I fold. If Kid calls, I take the free card on the turn and check it through if he's a calling station, if I think he'll lay it down there, I bet again. If he calls the turn I check behind on the river fully expecting to see a Jack.

[mike l.]

"i would probably raise the flop hoping to get BB to fold AK or AQ if thats what he's got and hoping to get to a cheap showdown against the bettors very likely J."

okay ive read this twice now in this thread and i just felt responsible to step in and point out:

--a pair of Js beats a pair of Ts.

--putting in 2 or 3 bets on this flop w/ TT given the action is terrible losing poker.

--getting bb to fold AK or AQ sure helps utg with his pair of jacks and im sure he'll be grateful but it doesnt help hero at all because

--a pair of jacks STILL beats a pair of tens!

sometimes i really wonder what you kids are smoking.

[mike l.]

"With UTG not being overly aggressive and a "college kid" I would like to know if he is capable of laying down a Jack there"

lmao. if there's one thing utg's flop bet directly into a preflop 4 better says louder than "i have at least a pair of jacks" it's "i'm committed to a showdown".

[Nightwish]

OK, let's say you call and BB calls. The turn is a 2. UTG bets again. What do you do? Do you lay it down? How sure are you that UTG has a J?

[mike l.]

yes you fold. if utg has A7 and he plays that way after all that preflop strength then god bless him, just take notes because soon you will have all his chips.

peel once on the flop and then go away if you dont pick up a gutter or set on the turn. or just fold on the turn. getting overinvolved on flops like this after youve shown strength and their still firing back is a classic intermediate player leak. dont get overattached to those pocket pairs, theyre only as strong as the flops they hit.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Js 7c 3d. BB checks, UTG now bets.



[/ QUOTE ]

Right about now a feeling would start coming over me, and it wouldn't be the "warm fuzzies."

[TimTimSalabim]

I'd raise here to see where I stand. Since you four-bet preflop they'll probably give you credit for an overpair when you raise the flop. If they repop you on the flop or bet into you again on the turn you can pretty safely assume you're beat and fold. If not then you get a free card, and get to the showdown cheaply.

[Gabe]

Maybe he's on a draw.

If you hadn't four bet I would say fold. However, now I could see myself raising or folding or even calling depending on the vibe I was getting.

Because of your regional peculiarities you very well might to be able to use a scare card later. The problem is the BB. If you don't raise and he stays he may really have the scare card. If you raise, the scare card is less believable. However, credibility is less important in your specific location.

Of course, sometimes when you try to pull your foot out of the mud you just get sucked in deeper.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes i really wonder what you kids are smoking.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I don't understand is how nobody has commented on the fact that I was eating mashed potatoes with chopsticks!

[Easy E]

why is it so important to you that we know that?

I don't see it as all that difficult, by the way, unless you like really runny mashed potatoes

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
--putting in 2 or 3 bets on this flop w/ TT given the action is terrible losing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. A flop bet doesn't automatically mean the guy has AJ or an overpair. He might be betting 88 into this innocent-looking flop, especially given he's the "college kid" type. He's probably seen people bet underpairs just like this on the WPT. Raise on the cheap street. If he bets again on the turn then you can take him seriously and fold. If you're going to fold on the flop to one overcard, why would you ever play TT?

[Easy E]

"No real read on him yet, he seems a little loose and not overly aggressive."

Unless he is laying down Jacks here to my reraise and BB also only has overcards, I'm folding here.

Is this too firm a decision, given that you don't have a good read on the college kid yet?

[cwl]

[ QUOTE ]
"i would probably raise the flop hoping to get BB to fold AK or AQ if thats what he's got and hoping to get to a cheap showdown against the bettors very likely J."

okay ive read this twice now in this thread and i just felt responsible to step in and point out:

--a pair of Js beats a pair of Ts.

--putting in 2 or 3 bets on this flop w/ TT given the action is terrible losing poker.

--getting bb to fold AK or AQ sure helps utg with his pair of jacks and im sure he'll be grateful but it doesnt help hero at all because

--a pair of jacks STILL beats a pair of tens!

sometimes i really wonder what you kids are smoking.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think his single most likely hand is a pair of jacks, that doesnt in and of itself imply that him holding that hand is likely enough to give up. if 60% of the time he has a jack and 40% of the time he has some smaller pocket pair then its more likely than not he has a J, and its still worth putting in 2 more BB to showdown your TT. if your point is that he has a J a higher percentage of the time than that or that their are enough other potential negatives to playing on in the hand like this then you may well have a point. there are many good reasons to be cautious about getting more deeply involved in the hand but i think you only confuse the issue when you equate a pair of jacks being his most likely hand with the conclusion that its time to be done with it.
your right though, JJ being better than TT does make things look a little bleaker than i had originally thought.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
if there's one thing utg's flop bet directly into a preflop 4 better says louder than "i have at least a pair of jacks" it's "i'm committed to a showdown".

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey mike l.,

Though fairly rare, you do sometimes see semi-clueless people use this thought process:

"Ooh, I flopped top pair. But these other guys seem to have big hands. Maybe they just have AK. I'll bet it, and if this dude raises, he MUST have me beat..."

That having been said, I'd be shocked if that actually happened here. But, amazingly enough, I have seen it on more than one prior occasion...

ML4L

[Gabe]

On a couple of a different occasions, a bartender at Hollywood Park, mentioned to me that he ate everything there with chopsticks, even ice cream. I took this to be a statement about sanitation, as he was African American and not Asian.

[surfdoc]

Not sure I understand the preflop 4 bet. Care to elaborate your reasoning here?

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I don't understand is how nobody has commented on the fact that I was eating mashed potatoes with chopsticks!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm Chinese. I can eat anything with chopsticks. Mashed potatoes is cake. Now try eating porridge with chopsticks, and you'll get my attention.

Garland

[Clarkmeister]

I called. BB called. 3 to the turn for 7.75BBs.

Turn [Js 7c 3d] 8h. BB checks, UTG bets.

Now what?

[Garland]

After a 4 bet aggression by BB and you, he comes out firing? There are not real draws on the flop on J high? Dump this. You're either behind on a J or UTG was sitting back on AA, KK, QQ . He might even have a set.

But somehow knowing you from your posts, you didn't let it go. If you insisted on playing on, you simply must raise.

Big pocket pairs are sometimes hard to let go, But it only hurts for a little while. Just take the chip off the cards and tell the dealer "take them quickly before I leak chips!".

Garland

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
"Flop: Js 7c 3d. BB checks, UTG now bets."

you lose. but you dont fold cause your backdoor this and that and some joker 4 bet it with TT so now there's 13.5 bets in there. call, but be ready to press eject on the turn.

please dont tell me you raised cause that just stinks.


[/ QUOTE ]

At least that joker didn't 4 bet it with JJ.

(kidding, I loved that 4-bet.)

As you see in part 2, I didn't raise. I agree that it stinks.

[Clarkmeister]

"i think his single most likely hand is a pair of jacks, that doesnt in and of itself imply that him holding that hand is likely enough to give up. if 60% of the time he has a jack and 40% of the time he has some smaller pocket pair then its more likely than not he has a J, and its still worth putting in 2 more BB to showdown your TT. "

I think this is critical.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure I understand the preflop 4 bet. Care to elaborate your reasoning here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to know before the flop if I am worried about AA and KK. Plus, when there is a close decision between raising and calling (on any street), the presense of a 3rd player I deem not an immediate threat always makes me lean towards raising.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to know before the flop if I am worried about AA and KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

this confused me until I remembered you play in vegas with a 5 bet cap. it may have confused the guy asking about the 4 bet as well.

--turnipmonster

[Gabe]

Okay, now raise, if you think there is a reasonable chance you have the best hand and/or you think they'll put you on Aces and fold.

[TimTimSalabim]

Well, now you have to call because you've picked up 4 more outs. But I still think calling the flop stinks, because if you'd raised the flop, you'd have most likely gotten a free card here.

[Ulysses]

Call and river a nine or ten.

[mikelow]

Raise. Might drive the BB out, and even if not might get a free river. Check behind (assuming no improvement) if checked to you on the river.

[bobbyi]

I haven't played much in games with a 5 bet cap. Do most people cap with AA, KK and nothing else? Or are there a lot of players who would just call with AA and KK for deception (or, alternately, who would five-bet with hands like AKs)?

[andyfox]

Well, he raised pre-flop twice and was bet into on the flop, so I'm not so sure he gets a free card on the turn by raising the flop. Given that he's probably in (at least) second place, and the fact that this kid is more likely than most anyone else to just be thinking about his own hand, I don't like a flop raise very much.

[andyfox]

I don't think there's too much chance he has the best hand and while I think the kid may put him on aces, he's still not going to fold until he see them.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I liked call on the flop and I like call on the turn.

[Gabe]

If he's going to call the river unimproved, isn't the raise a free roll? I guess not if the kid has a set, and he'll reraise. He's picked up too many outs to fold. I don't know. I just don't think just calling the flop and the just calling the turn can possibly be the right way to play a hand.

[andyfox]

"I just don't think just calling the flop and the just calling the turn can possibly be the right way to play a hand."

I hate it too, but maybe this is one of those rare times where it make sense. Hard to imagine, especially considering the 4-bet pre-flop.

[mike l.]

"On a couple of a different occasions, a bartender at Hollywood Park, mentioned to me that he ate everything there with chopsticks, even ice cream. I took this to be a statement about sanitation, as he was African American and not Asian."

he was hitting on you gabe. im not sure how exactly, but that's my read and im sticking with it.

oh btw ill be at hp tomorrow afternoon around 3pm onward, might go to a friend's party later in the night though. you can point out the bartender to me when you buy me a drink. what a plan! oh one more thing: i will glady play ping pong in the dingy upstairs rec room with anyone interested.

[mike l.]

since you called the flop and hit a friendly turn card you now call the turn. you are not, however, and i repeat NOT committed to a showdown. got that? if your wiring is feeling loose and you will call the river when it bricks and he bets then you need to fold on the flop.

NOW, if the player you described were different and more wily you have a clear raise on the turn because you want to make sure overcards and/or 99 (unlikely) in the bb fold. you want to see a showdown. also this is your one chance to push someone off a pair of jacks or some other hand like A7 that youd rather just see fold and get out of your pot now that it's getting largish. again though, im certainly not advising this given the player you describe. i think some people here need to go back and reread your initial post re: the player (fwiw im putting utg on AA or KK).

[Mikey]

you just recieved a birthday card and now, you want to know what you should do?

[TimTimSalabim]

Even if you don't get the free card, raising the flop has two other advantages: 1. if he bets into you again on the turn, you can be much more certain you're behind, and fold (except in this case where you picked up the gutshot outs). 2. you get BB to fold a hand like AK that could outdraw you.

[Steve Giufre]

Fold. So few players will bet AK, AQ here. Even if you called and won I still thnik it stinks.

[andyfox]

Few choices in poker (or life?) are undeniably, 100% correct. The advantages you cite are real and I see the argument for raising. But I think the positives are outweighed by the negatives.

-a raise might cost three bets to see the turn (or cause you to fold to a re-raise)

-I don't need much more evidence that I'm behind, having 4-bet pre-flop. That said, as mike l. points out, it doesn't matter much if A-K outdraws you if you're already in second place.

Good thread, huh?

[Mikey]

"Fold. So few players will bet AK, AQ here. Even if you called and won I still thnik it stinks."

what kind of advice is this?

Clarky is getting 6.4920590 to 1 odds to catch a 10 on the turn.

He is getting 6.4920590 to 1 odds to catch both an 8 or a 10 on the turn which means there are 6 cards left in the deck which can give him a winner or a draw to the winner.

Yes if he missses on the turn then the pot will now be offering him 7.8209069002 to 1 odds to catch a 23 to 1 shot which will definitley give him comfort in the fact that he didn't fold on the flop for one bet, i'm sorry excuse me, one small bet, because after all "its just too weak"

Now if the turn and river double pairs, and the BB did infact have something like AKs.

now clarky is getting 6.192905902 to 1 odds that there is a chance that UTG was bluffing with Ace little or just a measly pair of 7's or something weak like a pair of 2's.
But the pot is offering 9.298094890 to 1 odds so in essence game theory definitley plays a role here.
If you need help on game theory or a definition of: I suggest David Sklansky's Theory of Poker.

Don't you understand odds?? What is wrong with you?

[Eric P]

I would not raise this turn. You are ALMOST certainly behind, i think i might be giving this "college kid" too much credit as I am also a "college kid" and i wouldn't limp then call 2 more very often without a hand that has you beat here. and If by occasion i did make a bad pre-flop play, i have you beat if i'm betting out unless i have pocket nines, which on the turn is the only hand i can put him on that you can beat. If he does have pocket nines then he will fold for a raise, and probably bet the river regardless. If the other player has you beat there is a small possibility that he will fold the winner to a raise on the turn. The question is if a raise will knock out the person behind you, is it still worth it considering that you might get 3-bet, which you would then have to call for a gutterball. I think you could have saved a lot of anguish by folding on the flop.

what is wrong with raising the flop again? We will sure find out quick if you are losing or not, and maybe you get a free turn once you pick up the draw. I can see why you would want to call for sure, but i don't think the raise is as bad as you guys do, it gets it heads up (and if it doesn't then the discussion is over cause you have got to be beat) and you might get 3-bet by the best hand, and you can probably fold. But once you don't raise the flop, calling the turn is what appears to be best to me

Ulysses: You said (i think it was you, if not ... then whoever said it) that if you thought they had a jack you would fold on the turn for 1 bet? How can this be true with 13 bets in the pot, with what appears to be a 6 out draw

[Eric P]

if what you say in the bottom part of your post is how you feel, then doesn't folding the flop seem to be right?

[Steve Giufre]

Mikey,

I misread the board, and didnt see that Clark picked up a gutshot. I think raising the turn and checking the river is a fine play, or calling the turn and making a judgement desision on the river is also fine. Next time I will read the post more carefully before responding. However, next time, I think you should remdind yourself you are an average at best mid limit hold em player who should perhaps not be talking such a big game.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Mashed potatoes is cake. Now try eating porridge with chopsticks, and you'll get my attention.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think it was hard or worthy of commendation, I just thought it was strange.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Ulysses: You said (i think it was you, if not ... then whoever said it) that if you thought they had a jack you would fold on the turn for 1 bet? How can this be true with 13 bets in the pot, with what appears to be a 6 out draw

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're confusing my flop advice with my turn advice. My turn advice was very simple: Call and river a nine or ten.

[Punker]

I like to raise to fold out the BB who sure looks like he has AK, and attempt the patented Clarkmeister Fratboy over Fratboy intimidation maneuver.

By raising the turn, if your opponent is this kind of semi weak newbie that I get the feeling you believe him to be, he will likely call almost regardless of his hand, and check to you on the river, where you can either check (if no improvement), or bet (if improvement).

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Flop: Js 7c 3d. BB checks, UTG now bets."

you lose. but you dont fold cause your backdoor this and that and some joker 4 bet it with TT so now there's 13.5 bets in there. call, but be ready to press eject on the turn.

please dont tell me you raised cause that just stinks.


[/ QUOTE ]
As you see in part 2, I didn't raise. I agree that it stinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like raising the flop with the intention of checking behind on the turn and probably folding on the river unimproved. Unless UTG flopped two pair, I think you're very likely to get checked to on the turn (If he flopped a set, I think he'll still check intending to check-raise).

[andyfox]

Provided I'm confident enough in my read that it makes sense compared to my odds of sucking out. Since it was three players for four bets pre-flop, taking one off can't be too wrong, especially considering that this opponent will likely keep betting into me and I thus stand to win lots of big bets if I catch.

[Mikey]

"However, next time, I think you should remdind yourself you are an average at best mid limit hold em player who should perhaps not be talking such a big game."

I know but I can't help it, 2+2 is my aspriational reference group.

[Clarkmeister]

I just wasn't at all sure about the kid, so I raised the turn. BB coldcalls 2 bets and the kid calls.

River is [Js 7c 3d 8h] 5s. They both check to me, I assume no one bets here?


I throw my hands up in the air and say "no no no, I check".

Kid flips up ATo quickly, like he thinks its good. Dealer looks at me and asks what I have. I say "oh no, its not my turn, its his turn" as I pointed to the BB. BB opens his hand and has 99. My TT is good.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, now you have to call because you've picked up 4 more outs. But I still think calling the flop stinks, because if you'd raised the flop, you'd have most likely gotten a free card here.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop raise here needs to do any of 3 things here:

1. Get me a free card.
2. Let me know if I am good.
3. Drive out something like AK from the BB.

I think it will do none of those 3 the vast majority of the time.

[Eric P]

oh ok, that's pretty good advice i must admit. I tried mashed potatoes and chopsticks with little to no success. But the steak made up for it (which i ate with a fork)