A 20-40 hand for Mike l.

[Clarkmeister]

Tilting regular open raises in MP. An orbit earlier, he open raised with 2h4h. Very unlike him as he is usually fairly solid, maybe a small winner, but hey that's not the opponent I'm facing today.

So he open raises. I had limped with JJ earlier and deceptively played AK (winning decent pots both times), so I had the table fairly well confused. I decide to cash in on this and raise my tilting buddy with 2h2s 3 spots from the button. Folded back to tilter who calls. 2 to the flop for 7.5SBs.


Flop is Ah Ac 4d. He checks, I bet, he checkraises, I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call.

Turn is 8h. He bets, I call.

River is Kd. He checks, I pause and check.

Thoughts?

[elysium]

hi clark
i'm not crazy about this one clark. i hate the raise pre-flop. i say muck it man. well, eh the three bet. no clark. just call. the river, you hate the K.

it looks like you're try to keep lively. i used to think that was correct, but not any more clark. i think you should muck this pre-flop every time in this situation. this is a can't raise, can't call situation. you just feel bland about either raising or calling. don't you feel that bland like feeling? i muck here. it's no good.

[Eric P]

A little too tricky for your own good I think. He's titling he might have sixes and still go all the way. When he check-raises the flop you should probably let it go, a tilter isn't goign to think "o.k. he's got me for sure here, i better let it go" He's probably going to play basically anything here all the way. That king sucked too, but so do all the other cards, i don't like it much at all.

I used to try plays like this at the 10/20 game i played in. After a few sessions i couldn't play in that game cause i had no money. i can't imagine the situtation will be much different in 20-40 against a titler

[Nightwish]

Its symptoms are 3-betting with 22 pre-flop and 4-betting on an AA4 flop.

[TJSWAN]

Clarkmeister,

2-3 soooooted no good, have another Corona /images/graemlins/wink.gif.


Tim

[mike l.]

interesting hand. i think you lost control of this hand on the flop and turn. when he checkraises the flop you need to flat call and then pounce on the turn. or you need to 5 bet the flop. or you need to raise the turn when that 8 comes and he's still betting.

that's provided you really think a: you still have the best hand or b: you think you can run him off a better hand. after he 4 bets the flop and bets the turn you have to really start thinking neither of those are the case and it's time to give up.

[mikelow]

Egads! Three-betting preflop with pocket ducks, and then taking it to four bets on the flop.

On the flop, I'll just call the checkraise, and possibly just call it down. On the river, you can only beat KJ or KT.

[J_V]

I don't want to play 2's against a maniac. You're never gonna be able to pound him the way you need to.

The only way you're gonna make money against him is to get him to bluff off $$$$ to you. It's gonna be tough to do since he's 50% to beat you anyway and will be giving you lots of action w/ and without the hand.....and what if one or both on the blinds come?

Get yourself an A6s.

[Diplomat]

What the heck is going on here? Why not take advantage of your image against players who are not horribly on tilt and willing to go any number of bets with any number of hands?

I think you picked the wrong weapons and the wrong adversary.

On the flop, I'd tend to just call the whole way down and possibly bet the river if checked to. I'd rather him keep betting nothing than to try to blow him off a pair, because he's not going to fold a pair. (or will he?)

-Diplomat

[Gabe]

Did you come up with the title of the post first, then try to play a hand so that it would fit the title?

[Gabe]

"On the river, you can only beat KJ or KT."

Huh?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Why is it that I am never in games when regulars go on tilt? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I gotta start playing with Clarky on my right. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Clark- I think you need tiltless.com

LGPG,

Bab /images/graemlins/heart.gife

[Clarkmeister]

Babe,

The good news is that most regulars in that game are mediocre enough that we don't need them to tilt to make the game good.

[Clarkmeister]

"interesting hand. "

I think so. I certainly think its more interesting than most here seem to think it is.

"i think you lost control of this hand on the flop and turn. when he checkraises the flop you need to flat call and then pounce on the turn. or you need to 5 bet the flop. or you need to raise the turn when that 8 comes and he's still betting. "

I agree with all of this. I played it brutally postflop. I am much better saving that bet on the flop for the turn, where I can better represent a big ace, and could actually get a better hand to fold. The way I played it, I gave a better non-ace hand no chance to fold, which is terrible.

"that's provided you really think a: you still have the best hand"

When he checkraises the flop, I was nearly certain I had the best hand. He'd have just bet out with a pair I think, and he would definitely have slowplayed an ace because...well...thats what he would have done.


" after he 4 bets the flop and bets the turn you have to really start thinking neither of those are the case and it's time to give up. "

My hand had zero chance of hitting the muck. When he 4-bets preflop I need to give some credence to the fact that he does indeed have some crappy ace or pair, but its still not convincing enough that I was terrified. But as you noted, if I felt that way, I have *got* to 5-bet or raise the turn. Allowing him to make it to showdown with something like 66 is unforgivable.

Honestly, I think this is a major hole in my game, and Gabe perhaps knows it better than anyone. I am so used to simply manipulating people into thinking I am full of crapola, that I have gotten very bad at consciously representing a specific, easily representable hand. My failure to get him to muck prior to showdown is a perfect example of this.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn...He bets, I call.

River...He checks, I pause and check.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to make him fold 54o if you don't put him to the test on the expensive streets. And, if you're not going to put him to the test, you shouldn't be getting involved with 22.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn...He bets, I call.

River...He checks, I pause and check.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to make him fold 54o if you don't put him to the test on the expensive streets. And, if you're not going to put him to the test, you shouldn't be getting involved with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. This was a terribly played hand postflop.

[Clarkmeister]

"What the heck is going on here? Why not take advantage of your image against players who are not horribly on tilt "

In a way I did, in that they all folded despite the obvious isolation raise.

[Clarkmeister]

"Get yourself an A6s."

The problem is the dealer gave me 22. The hand was a little light, but the situation was still good. Especially considering my previous preflop play that session, the chance to show down the hand is definitely additive to my Shania.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you come up with the title of the post first, then try to play a hand so that it would fit the title?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, played it first, then the title. Mike would've played it better.

[mikelow]

I meant the turn--sorry.

Well, on the river, there's even less you can beat.
So you could bluff, but I think a tilter will call.

[J_V]

Maybe I don't understand how playing weirdly but tightly earlier in the session fits in w/ this 22 hand. Normally, I try to establish a pattern in my opponents mind and then do something differently. Obviously, you opponents would assume a bigger hand than 22, but by no means would I put you on a monster. If i saw this 22 hand get shown down, I'd make a mental note that you are Mr. Tricky or Mr. Opposite. Not sure that would have much added value for you later or that you'd be able to capitalize on it.


[ QUOTE ]
The problem is the dealer gave me 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, what a shame.


Essentially I think playing 22 this way against this player is not +EV. It's okay if you knew the blinds would fold, but the fact that you could go 3 way w/ 22 agaisnt a maniac w/ 22 is not good.

[MHoydilla]

I think if you call the flop 4 bet, raise the turn.

[J_V]

You cashed in all your latent image potential for 22 against a maniac? Look to me like you picked the door w/ the goat behind it.

[J_V]

n/m

[mikelow]

If I'm in the BB's seat--I'm calling with a pocket pair.
I might toss 33, but I'm calling with anything else.

Better to give it up and save it for someone else who's more likely fold a pair.

[Diplomat]

Ok fair enough, but that's not exactly my point.

-Diplomat

[tpir90036]

very interesting. i think the bets you spent jamming up the flop would have been better spent raising the turn and/or river....but i know that you know that. do you think it was possible to get him to lay down a better hand or did you think you were in the lead? more importantly, did you have a decent read as to what he was going to table after the check-through?

please, please, please tell me that he turned over QJ and that you won the hand and that he went into a rage and flipped the table over. i really don't see what he could have possibly played like this except for a total bluff or a very weak ace that he backed off on later.

[andyfox]

"Flop is . . . I call."

"Turn is . . . I call."

No good.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
"Flop is . . . I call."

"Turn is . . . I call."

No good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, come now Andy. There is an "I 3-bet" sprinkled in between that "flop" and "I call".

[shemp]

I think I've read all the posts in this thread, and in my opinion you are talking a lot of rot. Baring some sort of bait and switch, you lose the hand to a pocket pair. Ok.

[ QUOTE ]
[T]he situation was still good.

[/ QUOTE ]

22 is not generally a hand to 3-bet, and specifically not against someone who wants a reason to make it to the river. Your persistence in this article of faith baffles me. I don't see how this is a good situation. If you were to just say, I 3-bet for the halibut, hoping he had a hand and I flopped a set, or no hand and who knows, it would make more sense to me. And your self-flagellation for not raising the turn. Get Real. He's calling here, not because he thinks he might be best, he's not really processing like that, but because there's one card to come. See, even in his altered state, he knows that, and, in fact, that fact defines his altered state.

[ QUOTE ]
Especially considering my previous preflop play that session, the chance to show down the hand is definitely additive to my Shania.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a variation on "put'em on a hand you can beat." To the guy who thinks he is due, who, by god, deserves to win this hand, your image and your Shania, are just another turd in the punch bowl. Somewhere down deep you were praying for a deuce. The rest of the table? Showing down a goofy winner, beats the crap out of showing down a goofy loser.

[Indian Ocean]

I would of played it the same. You did fine. I would of played it the same



* and i am a kick ass player =)

[andyfox]

Don't you think you have to get the last raise in somewhere to get him to let go of a hand that has you beat?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think you have to get the last raise in somewhere to get him to let go of a hand that has you beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

True enough, hence my response to mike l.

[Clarkmeister]

I'll get back with some more thoughts tomorrow, but here are the results for now.

I checked behind, he said "nothing". I shrugged my shoulders and said "how little nothing?". He flipped over 97o and my hand was good.

One general thought - 3-betting preflop here is at worst giving up pennies if the players behind you are going to stay out of your way, which I thought they would. I generally fold smallish pairs to preflop raisers but this was a good spot IMO for one of those "random" changes of pace.

[J_V]

haha...I always wonder if the advice is being given by a decent player or just some pisscookie. Good to know you kick ass, I'll take that in to consideration.

[Coilean]

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing him to make it to showdown with something like 66 is unforgivable ... Honestly, I think this is a major hole in my game

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know about that, I think most strategies designed to get a tilter to fold a pair are inherently flawed. The tilter who calls too often is way more common than the tilter who starts folding too often (although you do see this in some players).

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree. This was a terribly played hand postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's as horrible as you all seem to think.

I have taken the liberty of mapping Tilting Live Player : Online Maniac.

When you have a maniac firing raises at every opportunity you're in a great spot to get paid off, but when you're as weak as you were you're also in a spot to dictate exactly how much exposure you get in a hand. But you're often not in a position to make a worse hand fold. You can't raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet because he's proven by his insane flop play that his peener is indeed large. And you probably still have the best hand.

And his river check... see... I don't think he was giving up. I think he was looking to check-raise. After all, you might fold to that, since you've proven that you can call $40 on the turn, you'll definitely call $40 on the river so he can't bet.

I put in a ton of hours playing with retards online, and they basically play like guys who are on full-blown-tilt. And you can't take control of a hand if there is still an opportunity for them to put in another raise, because they don't give up.

Maybe you -could- have gotten THIS guy to back off and take control of the hand yourself, but in general if a guy decides to play like a nut all they know how to do is raise whenever they possibly can, or try to create a spot for themself to raise in. And they're as good as Mike Mc D because the cards don't even matter.

Since, after all, you might fold.

Anyhow, that's how I look at his play. As for your play... Do you think that your pair of 2's were worth more than $180 of investment? If you do, then ok you didn't play it strongly enough, since he was likely willing to fire more chips in there.

In summary: I think everyone is over-valuing the possibility that he might fold, or stop raising at all every time you put chips into the pot.

~D

[Eric P]

you guys are talking about how he has to pop it on turn or river so he can't show down with something like 66. While i totally agree, and the river call was probably the play i like the least (but it is tough cause he might 3-bet a raise on the river, so at least pop the turn... scratch that the turn call is no good like you guys said) will he even fold the 66? That's why i don't think this is good, i stopped doing this recently when i play a hand almost exactly the same way. Except the guy i was against called the turn and check-called the river. I say just dueces when he calls "chop it up" he says. Tilting people just aren't gonna fold enough to have this play be great, but that doesn't make it a bad play.