hand i played awful against gabe

[mike l.]

this hand just sucked so bad i can hardly bear it. it was 40-80 6 handed and my mood is great. gabe is on my right and the game just started and i dont plan to play long. ive been playing a lot of hands and have had some nice pocket pairs and stuff, plus given the way ive been playing the rest of the table thinks im a maniac so theyre calling me down with bottom pair and stuff.

so it's folded to gabe in the sb and i say chop! and he says no i always play and i smile and say cool let's play. he limps and i look down and see K8o and say check.

the flop is K44. he bets and i call. mistake 1.

the turn is A. he checks and i bet. mistake 2. he folds.

just thought id share. hopefully he and i will play some more hands soon at a later date.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

hey mikel....

ANYtime you win a pot heads up with Gabe, you count your blessings and not your mistakes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

LGPG,

Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[glen]

"the flop is K44. he bets and i call. mistake 1."

How do you think you messed up the flop? I think you can make a case for calling or raising.

[andyfox]

"it was 40-80 6 handed and my mood is great"

Mistake #1. You should never play unless your mood is great.

"the game just started and . . .ive been playing a lot of hands"

Mistake #2. How could the game just start and yet you played a lot of hands?

"ive . . . had some nice pocket pairs and stuff, plus given the way ive been playing the rest of the table thinks im a maniac"

Mistake #3. How could they think you're a maniac if, in a game that has just started you've had some nice pocket pairs and stuff?

"he limps and i look down and see K8o and say check."

Mistake #4: If he didn't raise, your K-8 is the best hand. Raise and win the pot right then and there.

"the flop is K44. he bets and i call. mistake 1."

Mistake #5: Thinking you should do anything other than call. Why raise? Why fold?

"the turn is A. he checks and i bet. mistake 2. he folds."

Mistake #6: Worrying about this pot. Gabe's not giving you any more money on this hand than he already has.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
"the game just started and . . .ive been playing a lot of hands"

Mistake #2. How could the game just start and yet you played a lot of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

He hit the ground running. Raising every hand. Betting the turn dark, then three betting, then folding to a four bet. Stuff like that.

[ QUOTE ]
"ive . . . had some nice pocket pairs and stuff, plus given the way ive been playing the rest of the table thinks im a maniac"

Mistake #3. How could they think you're a maniac if, in a game that has just started you've had some nice pocket pairs and stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only hand he had to show is one where he check-raised bluffed an old white guy on the turn with a gut shot, got reraised, and rivered the gutter.

[ QUOTE ]
"he limps and i look down and see K8o and say check."

Mistake #4: If he didn't raise, your K-8 is the best hand. Raise and win the pot right then and there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought he did.

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake #6: Worrying about this pot. Gabe's not giving you any more money on this hand than he already has.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not andy, but your Hunter S. Thompson reference about mike in another post was pretty good, at least as far as the few minutes he played last night. He sure seemed to be playing gonzo poker. Maybe, if I pair up or a 4, A, or K comes I pay him off. mike was giving the impression that his betting hand was hooked up directly to the reptilian center of his brain. The couple of guys I know like that, who play well, get a lot of action. (I mean like from other people, not from andy or me because we’re too smart.)

By the way, when he asked me if I chopped, I was thinking about lying. I was really happy when a seat opened up on mike’s left. I was as happy for him as I was for me.

[mikelow]

mike l.--a certified maniac who can get away with it.

I guess he was bored with tight play.

[andyfox]

I dont think he's a certified maniac at all. A least not in the sense that I think you mean.

I think he's maniacal in his desire to know as much about the game as he can and in his disappointment in himself whe he plays below some mythical standard of perfect excellence. This leads him to some minor problems, like, for example, worrying about getting one more bet out of Gabe here if Gabe happened to catch a bad card (for Gabe) on the river, and some major ones, like, for example, wondering about becoming a dealer or playing some crazy number of hours over the course of a month or playing 100-200 and being bored of the game.

I've spent some time, not a lot, with the man, and he's a helluva player. More important, he's a helluva person. I just wish he'd realize, more often that his posts here sometimes suggest, how much more important the latter is than the former.

[andyfox]

"He hit the ground running. Raising every hand. Betting the turn dark, then three betting, then folding to a four bet. Stuff like that."

OK. He should have said so.


"The only hand he had to show is one where he check-raised bluffed an old white guy on the turn with a gut shot, got reraised, and rivered the gutter."

OK. He should have said so. He said he had big pairs and was being called down by bottom pairs.

"mike was giving the impression that his betting hand was hooked up directly to the reptilian center of his brain. The couple of guys I know like that, who play well, get a lot of action. (I mean like from other people, not from andy or me because we’re too smart.)"

Speak for yourself.

BTW, does a 40-80 spread often at HP?

[J_V]

A lot of words that add up to mike l is a maniac. Mike l, you want advice, but I think you are proud of the fact that you play bad, aggressive poker. You enjoy being called a maniac or having maniacal qualities. Maybe starting in the psychology forum is the way to go.


Every mike l post for the last 3 years has gone the same way.....play bad preflop, either justify it or tell people to ignore it. then use your brilliant post flop skills to try and turn a losing hand into a winning hand, and/or bemoan an EV neutral missed river checkraise.

Once in a while a running bad epiphany is thrown in. Hmmmmmmm.

When other good players (Gabe, Clarkmeister) are essentially calling you a maniac either say thank you, or change.

[Gabe]

"A lot of words that add up to mike l is a maniac."

I did not mean to imply this at all.

[mike l.]

ok first off i did show down more than my rivered gutter. i had 77 and the board was K64-J-8. i was heads up against the bb. he checked blind on each street and i bet dark each time and i won and he showed exactly what he had to have: A4o he was dumb enough to even show it. he had apparently decided after 2 hands and 4 minutes that i was a maniac because i had AA utg and he four flushed on the flop and i went 6 bets on the flop against him and bet dark the rest of the way. a few hands later when he had flopped a set of jacks and i had 44 on the button after 3 betting gabe from the cutoff preflop. on a J85 flop he 4 bet me and bet the turn dark and i folded to turn x. he said see i can do it too, and i said "yeah but the difference is you need a hand". then he flashed his JJ. can you say easy pickins?
im not a maniac, i just make the game good by pretending to be one. plus i laugh and smile and talk like a big dumb ape who acts like just swallowed a liter or two of vodka. sit by me JV and you will score no hot chicks i promise, although you may get rich when i make the game absurdly good for you, ask clarkmeister.

as for the hand in question: i should have raised the flop. it's a clear steal looking flop. players who like to play and not chop like heads up action. now i could be wrong, gabe may have folded because he knows i respect his play, but then again maybe even he would be tempted to make one more play at the pot given that i had seemingly been given the maniac juice before i sat down to play. anyways i think the flop play here is raise because it seems so fake. flat-calling just too easily gives away that i have a K or 4, what else could i have? now given that i did just flat call my play on the turn has to be to check behind. if i am beat by an A or a 4 then it's gonna suck calling down and if i check i may be able to convince him to bet the river or to get suspicious and call me on the river should he pair up. so it's clear cut that i played it like hell and that's that.

[mike l.]

"Every mike l post for the last 3 years has gone the same way.....play bad preflop, either justify it or tell people to ignore it. then use your brilliant post flop skills to try and turn a losing hand into a winning hand, and/or bemoan an EV neutral missed river checkraise."

your simple minded generalizations are tiresome. only 95% of my posts are like that.

[mike l.]

andy said: Mistake #4: If he didn't raise, your K-8 is the best hand. Raise and win the pot right then and there.

gabe said: I thought he did.

no i just called on the flop.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
andy said: Mistake #4: If he didn't raise, your K-8 is the best hand. Raise and win the pot right then and there.

gabe said: I thought he did.

no i just called on the flop.



[/ QUOTE ]

He's talking about preflop. And I agree, you should raise there preflop.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
only 95% of my posts are like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are funny. I'm going to play in that game, and if you remember me at all it will be as the goofy olde dude with the titleist cap that all the old queers are wearing. But I'll already know you, you are the loose maniacal fish who grieves over his loose preflop calls..

[Clarkmeister]

Raise preflop.

Call flop.

Check turn.

Not really a lot of other ways you want to play this one.

[Gabe]

mike,

The point I meant to convey is that when a person appears to play loose and aggressive with animal like speed, he gets action, that I envy. When this type of person is actually thinking creatively and intelligently, he is a force to be reckoned with. I know that mile l. is not a maniac, although I may be in the minority, but he is a monster, at least at holdem anyway.

I do remember the 77 hand. I thought you played it really great, by the way. However, I don’t recall the 44 vs. set of J’s. How did I miss that one? Maybe I remember it differently.

Yeah, as far as our hand, you might have gotten me to give up one more small bet, but just for posturing. I think we’ve wasted too much bandwidth on it here, though.

Respect,
Gabe

P. S. I think that one of the reasons the game got good later was because you fired them up.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
P. S. I think that one of the reasons the game got good later was because you fired them up.


[/ QUOTE ]

One thing no one can deny is the following equation:

Mike l. at the table = great game

[mike l.]

"I don’t recall the 44 vs. set of J’s. How did I miss that one?"

cause it didnt make it to the showdown. i folded on the turn after it was clear i was beat.

"Yeah, as far as our hand, you might have gotten me to give up one more small bet, but just for posturing."

probably right. but over time i think i need to play it a lot better. i think i made errors on every street although i think it's close preflop.

"P. S. I think that one of the reasons the game got good later was because you fired them up."

youre welcome.

[mike l.]

"Mike l. at the table = great game"

this reminds me i was wanting to come out to vegas next week but wouldnt mind a little help w/ airfare, hotel room, food, etc... just thought id run it by you...

[Clarkmeister]

Give me a call. Airfare look to the usual suspects, America West, Southwest. Hotel will be a nightmare this time of year, Imperial Palace, Barbary Coast have the best and cheapest locations for poker. We've been getting the 40-80 going at the Mirage 3-4 nights a week and its super soft.

[mike l.]

"We've been getting the 40-80 going at the Mirage 3-4 nights a week and its super soft."

woohoo!

i was only joking though, the idea was that i make the games so great maybe you would comp my visit. get it?

[Clarkmeister]

Ah. Silly me.

Hmmm, maybe its worth it. Last time you were here you singlehandedly turned the worst 20-40 table I've seen in the last few months into one of the best.

[Gabe]

I knew what he meant right away. He's a rammin' jammin' 100-200 player who's too cheap to buy a cell phone. Just like the old joke:

"How do I know you won't use the money for gambling"

"Oh, I have gambling money."