I Play Weird : 87s in the BB

[GuyOnTilt]

Commerce 20/40
Dealt 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB
Table is a mix of weak/tight and loose/passive

4 limpers, Button raises, SB calls, I call, one of the limpers reraises saying, "Gambol!" and we all call. 6 to flop for 18 SB's.

Flop comes: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, one LP calls, Button calls. 10.5 BB's.

Turn comes: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif[9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

I bet, only Button calls. 12.5 BB's.

River comes: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif[5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif]

I bet.

Does anyone play this differently?

GoT

[2005]

Yes... I check-fold on the flop. Why spray chips in a big pot with two undercards and no draws??

Gavin

[AJo Go All In]

look closely. he has draws.

[MRBAA]

He has no real draw on the flop, picks one up on turn. There's a lot of money in the pot and he's trying to win it by representing a 9 or a full house on the flop. Sounds like the other guy had overcards and you took it down. Would you have folded to a raise on the flop? On the turn? Also, if this guy calls you down (or raises the river) and shows you something like 1010-AA would you think he has you down as LAG and decided to just let you bet his hand for him?

[AJo Go All In]

you missed the point. any time you pick up a draw on the turn, you had a draw on the flop.

also GOT by your description it seems the pot was 7-way, not 6-way.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a lot of money in the pot and he's trying to win it by representing a 9 or a full house on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the player is "representing" a 9 or a full house on the flop. Of course, if the player actually has it, he checks.

I'm different, though. If I flop a full house against a large field, I want to take down the pot immediately and win as small of a pot as possible.

[Manzanita]

G.O.T.,

With 5 players yet to act (including two raisers) I think betting out on the flop with no hand is suicidal.

-- Manzanita

[worm33]

um yeh check fold the flop

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes... I check-fold on the flop. Why spray chips in a big pot with two undercards and no draws??

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]
he's got backdoor draws, which is well worth a call imo. and i think that's why he bet, thinking he'd call a bet anyway.

however, i don't like the flop bet either. i think a check on the flop is the best move. u can call, u can fold if it's raised. and u can still be tricky on turn.

Kenny

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Kenny,

he's got backdoor draws, which is well worth a call imo. and i think that's why he bet, thinking he'd call a bet anyway. however, i don't like the flop bet either. i think a check on the flop is the best move. u can call, u can fold if it's raised.

Betting the flop is better than checking and calling. You agree that I should call one bet, which isn't really debatable, but by betting instead of calling I give myself a much better chance of winning when I hit a pair (or in this case, two pair). Yes, I do risk putting in one extra small bet if I'm raised, but that risk is worth the extra percentage that I'm giving myself to win this huge pot.

Again, the pot is 18 SB's before the flop. Right now, I still think a flop bet is the best play. But feel free to convince me otherwise.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Yes... I check-fold on the flop. Why spray chips in a big pot with two undercards and no draws??

Umm...unless the SB bet out, folding for one SB in this pot would be pretty horrible.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

He has no real draw on the flop, picks one up on turn. There's a lot of money in the pot and he's trying to win it by representing a 9 or a full house on the flop.

You're completely ignoring the effect that my bet has on my two-pair outs.

Would you have folded to a raise on the flop?

Not from the PF raiser, and not if I were close to closing the action. Pretty much no.

On the turn?

Getting a minimum of 13.5:1, no. I would be drawing live by far the majority of the time.

Also, if this guy calls you down (or raises the river) and shows you something like 1010-AA would you think he has you down as LAG and decided to just let you bet his hand for him?

No, my table image was definitely not LAG. It just about never is really. I'm almost always seen as a very tight player who is very aggressive when I decide to play a pot. But definitely not loose/aggressive. I'd only shown down one semi-bluff all night which was in a 3-way flop situation. I don't think anybody at that table thought I wouldn't have a hand betting into a large field on that board. But he very easily could've played AA that way up to this point.

GoT

[James282]

I check-fold the flop against "GAMBLORS". I would check-call the river against tricky opponents and bet out against morons.
-James

[James282]

It is not "clear" in any sense of the word that your hand should make it to the turn with this flop. Apparently your opponents are weak-tight babies, and your flop bet was much better than it would be for me in the 20-40 game at the Borgata, where you'd be quite lucky to lose 1 person if that many people saw the flop, and even luckier if you weren't raised by a 5, a 9, or an overpair to the 5. Given this apparent game texture, your bet looks fine.
-James

[DocHollyday]

Apart from check-folding, I don't like your statement. What does you make check-calling? No draw at all. The best thing you can pick up, is either a draw or one of your undercards. Since the pot was reraised, chances of someone holding an overpair is fairly high, and even if someone has just overcards you're drawing slim.

Last, but not least I think the most horrible advice is betting out against morons. Have you ever seen a moron folding a hand? May be they are different where you play, but in my game they call it all down the river, sometimes even with an ace high. I don't think it's recommendable to bet out into morons unless you've got a hand. These are not players capable of folding for one bet. All in all I think the play our friend made will cost him a lot of money in long terms.

[nykenny]

Betting the flop is better than checking and calling. You agree that I should call one bet, which isn't really debatable, but by betting instead of calling I give myself a much better chance of winning when I hit a pair (or in this case, two pair). Yes, I do risk putting in one extra small bet if I'm raised, but that risk is worth the extra percentage that I'm giving myself to win this huge pot.
GoT,

i do respect your play and understand your thought process. I am not saying it is wrong. folding would be wrong, as we both agree. However, I do favor a check simply because u will find out more information this way.

if someone has any pocket pair u will be raised, period. but you'd probably like to find out about that right away. but if someone has a trip, you could find yourself in a tricky situation. it is hard for you to be very tricky on the turn since someone might be tricky on you, and you don't really want that on the turn if u don't improve.

another reason that I would be quiet on flop is that, there is very very little chance you will win it right there (maybe impossible). some observant players might even get tricky with a good pocket pair, in that case, you will likely to face a turn raise, since your plan is to bet the turn if nothing scary develops (like an Ace).

last reason is your position. i believe by checking you will actually improve your theoretical position.

these are just some thoughts of mine that lead me to believe that checking on the flop might have also achieved this effect and given you better room for manuevering your opponents.

anyway, good play.

Kenny