87s on the button after three limpers

[spamuell]

We discussed this a little in the 2+2 IRC rooms, and astroglide feels that 87s is a fold on the button after 3+ limpers whereas others (myself included) feel it is a clear call.

It would be interesting to know the opinions of others on this. At the request of astroglide, please back up any opinions with actual statistical date - from a PokerTracker database with more than 10K hands, with reference to position, BB/hand and total times dealt.

Thanks for any feedback.

[astroglide]

i don't consider this a clear fold, but i would if there were 3 limps and i had 76s. i would call 98s, and 87s would be my exact ledge. i simply think the hand gets stuck with costly pair/draw combinations too often.

[King Yao]

I think its worth a call by a small margin. Especially if you play well relative to the other opponents, and I would assume anyone that is playing probably has that opinion, whether it really is the fact or not. Sorry, I have no database to present.

FWIW, my "breakeven" point is 76s.

[Ulysses]

[DiamondDave]

I fold most of the time. When I play the hand, I raise most of the time.

[SinCityGuy]

I don't have any emperical data on this, but from the texts that I've read, I believe that 87s has enough in the way of implied odds to limp in late behind three limpers. It's easy enough to muck if you don't hit the flop, and you've got prime position to play out the hand if you flop a big draw.

[Brian]

I call and don't think it's close. Same with 2 limpers. Same with 86s.

-Brian

[King Yao]

86s is a stretch in my opinion. with 87s, there is no one card that you have to hit. with 86s, you pretty much need a 7 to get a straight draw.

[Dynasty]

Anybody who is folding 87s on the button for one bet with three limpers ahead of you is playing waaaaaaaaaaay too tight. I don't even think this is worthy of discussion.

A more interesting question would be, do you limp with 87s when you're UTG+1 after UTG limps in a typical mid-limit game. In most situations, I'm playing 87s there. Today, I played 86s in a somewhat similar situation in a Mirage 10-20 game (it was actually two limpers ahead of me in MP).

[Franchise (TTT)]

There's a big influx of new posters in this forum, who are playing a very tight preflop. Assuming that they are new to the mid-limits, this might not be as bad of a thing for them.

But I've seen quite a few of these threads in this forum recently.

This one isn't close though.

[El Dukie]

Assuming the blinds aren't particularly aggressive, I'd certainly play 87s for a single bet with 3 limpers. One limper, no. Two limpers -- depends on how much I respect their play. I'd likely play 76s vs. 3 limpers, and maybe even 65s if I'm not real impressed by the limpers' play.

87s probably wouldn't get a "mix-it-up" button raise from me, but I do love doing that with higher suited connectors vs. lots of limpers.

[chesspain]

I will not fold them on a train,
I will not fold them on a plane.
I will not fold them here or there,
I will not fold them anywhere!

[bicyclekick]

when i first read the first few posts with people advocating folding i was really confused...because it seemed like such an obvious call that it didn't deserve discussion or anything. Start talking about 56s and maybe we can talk, but I'll play that from time to time. 86s is worth talking about too, and i think it was talked about awhile back when I think it was mason that came on here and said it's something you gotta call partly cause it will throw off a hand reader, cause it wont be so obvious. I don't remember the specific game conditions, but i recall they were similar. Obviously 1 limper would change things drastically.

[EWillers]

63K hands

87s 166 times (excluding blinds) . . .voluntarily played it 25.9% of the time. . .lost .05 BB/hand

on the button 30 times, played it 53% of the time. . .lost .19 BB/hand

I basically only play it from late position if 2 have limped in ahead of me. . .3 or more is an automatic play for me. . .maybe it's a mistake

I've lost similar amounts with 76s and 65s (.02 and .06 BB/hand respectively).

I've won marginally with T9s and 98s (.02 and .08 BB/hand respectively).

[CrackerZack]

I was involved in this discussion in the IRC room in its 2nd or 3rd day of life. Christ, I'd limp with this from MP if 2 EPs limped, maybe 1 if there were likely to be more behind me. with three limpers on the button, I'd call with 54s, and likely worse. I can't see how you guys are losing money with these hands.

[EWillers]

I have a win rate of right at 3 BB/100 hands (about half 2/4 and half 3/6), play 87s from late position sparingly, and still have the above (dissapointing) results.

I imagine that my problem is that I don't play aggressively enough when I flop a hand like middle pair. I probably play this hand weak/tight when I don't flop a 4 flush or OESD.

Cracker (or anybody else), do you have any stats to show your results with this hand?

I too felt, prior to getting PT, that 87s (and even 76s and 65s) were playable from MP/LP when one could count on many players. After playing them a few hundred times though, I am begining to be convinced otherwise.

[CrackerZack]

I posted it in IRC channel before. I hate posting stats and hate posting win rates more than anything. Your winrate may or may not be better than mine. I honestly don't know. I can't remember the last time I looked at mine. What I did look at was how I was doing with suited connectors and I was winning money with all of them down to 54s. How many total hands do you have in PT? None of us have a big enough sample size to really tell probably.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think it's a clear RAISE. Calling is second, and folding the worst.

[glen]

"Today, I played 86s in a somewhat similar situation in a Mirage 10-20 game (it was actually two limpers ahead of me in MP)."

Is the Mirage 10-20 so passive that you feel you can do this? What percentage of the time does it come back to you where you have to call two more, and does that not make up for any profit this hand may have in this situation?

[EWillers]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate posting stats and hate posting win rates more than anything. Your winrate may or may not be better than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted my win rate just to dispell any notion that I play terribly (of course I could be lying).

[ QUOTE ]
How many total hands do you have in PT?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
63K hands

87s 166 times (excluding blinds) . . .voluntarily played it 25.9% of the time. . .lost .05 BB/hand

on the button 30 times, played it 53% of the time. . .lost .19 BB/hand



[/ QUOTE ]

If you care to read my first post in the thread there's even more info on other suited connectors.

[ QUOTE ]
None of us have a big enough sample size to really tell probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times do you think one must get dealt the hand in the position under analysis for the sample size to be big enough?


I didn't mean 2 piss you off or anything, It's just that this is the only board I read.
How many times must one get dealt the hand

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the Mirage 10-20 so passive that you feel you can do this? What percentage of the time does it come back to you where you have to call two more, and does that not make up for any profit this hand may have in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

The game would have to be hyper-aggressive before I would consider folding in MP. Maybe if there is a habitual button/cutoff raiser, I would let it go. When your in MP, half the players have already decided not to raise. So, the chances of a raise have really gone down.

[CrackerZack]

Probably a few thousand. < 200 and you could easily be tainted by one time you turned a flush and someone with a set went nuts and filled on the river. Or vice versa. Its hard to find the long run. Anyway, FWIW, I'm between .2 and .5 BB in the positive with T9s thru 65s. I have had around 80 times though so small sample.

Zack

[Barry]

I do like 87s Sam I Am.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
We discussed this a little in the 2+2 IRC rooms, and astroglide feels that 87s is a fold ...

[/ QUOTE ]
What????!?!

bring him to my game... Geez Astro... are you kidding??!!

call 50%, raise 50%, fold 0%

I don't need any pokertracker data, I will back my play with all my bank roll. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kenny

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how you guys are losing money with these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
me neither, LOL

[nykenny]

there are so many crazy people on this forum, i am beginning to doubt my own sanity...

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
i simply think the hand gets stuck with costly pair/draw combinations too often.

[/ QUOTE ]
flopping draws and draws with pair is exactly what you want to do with these hands. other than flopping the nuts that give other people tons of draws and made hands and none catches up on river.... anyway, i think folding 87s after 3 limpers on the BUTTON is too conservative and it WILL hurt your win rate if you are a good player.

Kenny

[DiamondDave]

i think folding 87s after 3 limpers on the BUTTON is too conservative and it WILL hurt your win rate if you are a good player.

The if is very important.

[nykenny]

precisely