Who are these people?

[Monkeyslacks]

I'd forgotten to clock out the previous 3 times I'd been to the Borgata and unless I put in some hours, they weren't going to comp my room next weekend. So I went. Which isn't as easy as sounds or reads. The four hour bus ride is less than pleasant. But the games were good and my room is now comped so all went as planned, except for this one hand.

The game is 10/20 and we're in the big blind for this action. 5 limpers to the small blind, which seems right and normal for this group. Small blind likes to raise and does so. He's an Amir Vahedi type, right down to the cigar. Now I have to do something. 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Okay, I'll gamble. Everyone else calls. It's a lottery.

6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Could be worse. Could be lots worse. So Amir bets and I raise and it's five folds back to Amir who says "no cap heads up right?" and then he calls and check folds the 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn.

[Diplomat]

I dislike raising the flop and shutting out 5 clients.

-Diplomat

[astroglide]

i'll go ahead and nominate this one for the "terrible flop raises" hall of fame

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike raising the flop and shutting out 5 clients.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. With such a huge draw, and many opponents yet to act, perhaps letting the pot build up might be a more prudent course of action.

[CrackerZack]

I'll second that nomination and will bet heavily that this one gets in on the first ballot.

[Monkeyslacks]

See discussion in this post. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=560532 &Forum=All_Forums&Words=76&Match=Username&Searchpa ge=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=560147&Search=true #Post560532)

[Eric P]

the head of the first ballot maybe? 15 out draw, I know i want this heads up as soon as possible, Most votes 1st ballot

[CrackerZack]

Trying to emulate Tommy Angelo is a scary thing for people not named Tommy Angelo. I'm pretty sure he was pretty not happy with the raise also as he "forgot how to behave" in that hand.

This flop is screaming to be flat called and re-raised if raised behind you.

[Monkeyslacks]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he was pretty not happy with the raise also as he "forgot how to behave" in that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you feel this is rather aggressive interpretation of ambiguous language given his subsequent defense of the play?

Do you find any hints of brilliance in Elysium's response? (as to the raise, not just in general... /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he was pretty not happy with the raise also as he "forgot how to behave" in that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't you feel this is rather aggressive interpretation of ambiguous language given his subsequent defense of the play?

Do you find any hints of brilliance in Elysium's response? (as to the raise, not just in general... /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't meant to come off as snippy, but can you elucidate your reasons for playing it that way?

I remember reading that Tommy/elysium post, and the line of play that they were advocating didn't make any sense to me. And so I don't play it that way. Perhaps one day it will start to make sense and I will begin to play my big draws differently. In the meantime, my flopped 13-outers seem to do just fine for themselves.

[lefty rosen]

The only hope for that over played hand is that the other players are total sheep, who don't fold until they absolutely know that their hand is dead otherwise just call and trap, the only way you lose that is if you share a flush or it goes runner runner diamond, it's worth the chance......

[Monkeyslacks]

It was a marginal call whether or not to let this thread die, but I decided that a succinct response was +EV.

I can't justify the raise here at all. I would play it the way that all who responded would. I raised in this instance and posted it because reading the Tommy/Elysium post had left me wondering. There wasn't much discussion of the play in that thread and I thought I saw some merit in Elysium's response, but real hazy like. "Driving players out with your outs" had a nice ring to it...

Thanks for killing this one.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll go ahead and nominate this one for the "terrible flop raises" hall of fame

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is wrong with everybody in this thread? I would raise this flop everytime and not give a damn whether everybody calls or everybody folds. But, I would expect to get multiple callers and then need to actually make a hand. But, sometimes, you'll get the folders and win without having to make a hand or get to a showdown.

Raising is definitely the best play. Everybody who wants to just call here because "you don't want to shut everyone out" can probably be found in another thread saying "Why did you raise with top pair on such a low draw-heavy flop? You're not going to get anybody with any hand to fold! These players wouldn't even fold overcards with that flop!"

SimCityGuy:
[ QUOTE ]
With such a huge draw, and many opponents yet to act, perhaps letting the pot build up might be a more prudent course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just the wrong way to think. You don't build pots by checking or calling unless you think somebody is going to bet/raise behind you. You make them by betting and raising yourself. Get those bets into the pot while you've got such huge equity. Your opponents will amaze you with their ability to cold-call multiple bets with an unimproved QJo.