clarkmeister will wonder how i can ever beat this game...

[tolbiny]

Playing 10-20 last night, loose mostly passive game going.
I pick up Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the sb, we get four limpers i complete bb raps
flop
Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
yay top pair, no kicker, i love playing those
i check with the intention of figuring out what to do when its my turn again.
It gets checkecd around to the lp player who bets- this means at least a pair, probably queens, possibly A5 or maybe a pocket pair between Q and 5. I raise wanting to knock out any stray As and Ks out there. Folded around to the lp who reraises.
This is the first three bet on the flop i have seen from him tonight (in the last hour). This has got to mean two pair or a set. Q5s is a definate posibility for his hand preflop, but 52 isnt. I dont think he does this with AQ so im looking at 22, 55 or Q5s. I think i should have layed it down right there, but i called, bsically praying for a 6. Turn comes 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check fold, but as i fold i think that i just threw away a legit flush draw. If my read is right then he cant have a heart above my 6 and i just picked up 8 (non fullhouseing) outs. Problem is do i pay him off with if a Q or 6 comes, and will i get paid if my heart comes (i think i will if he has a set, but not two pair). I had just never been in a situation where a draw to a 6 high flush looked so good to me. Any way he flipped over 22 after i mucked.

Hand 2: Same table a round or two later, i pick up red Ks in Lp with four limpers to me, i raise, button cold calls, blinds drop, limpers all come along.
flop comes A /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
not a good flop for me, checked to me, i bet, all call.
turn 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to me, i check, button checks
river T /images/graemlins/club.gif checked to me, i check, button bets, ep calls, i fold.
good bad or routine?

[Paluka]

hand 1: ugly, just ugly

hand 2: routine

[tolbiny]

i know hand one was ugly, where would you put in the fold?

[Gabe]

before the flop, on the flop, or on the river

[tolbiny]

alright, so i did say that facing the reraise on the flop i should have folded, who goes for the checraise in this situation (remembering that i checked waiting to see what developed and decided on a checkraise when it was checked to the button). My real question i guess is that with my read on the turn should i have considered my 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif a legitimate out to a flush draw? How good of a read do you have to have to consider those 8 outs in a 7bb pot at that point?

[Diplomat]

Tolbiny,

you need to fold the Q6o hand pre-flop. Although there are 4 limpers to you, Q6o is not good enough for a half bet. You are out of position with a dominated hand against several players. Easy fold pre-flop.

Given that you called pre-flop, I'd fold to the re-raise on the flop against all but the most loose aggressive opponents.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

I think your thinking on the flop checkraise is fine. Calling the re-raise is the problem.

As for the flushdraw...if you think it is a legit out (and if you can fold confidently on the river if you miss, and think you will gain a bet on the river if you hit), I guess you can call the turn. It's hard to say, I don't see these situations that often.

-Diplomat

[Gabe]

"It's hard to say, I don't see these situations that often."

Maybe if you played Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB you would.

[Gabe]

"My real question i guess is that with my read on the turn should i have considered my 6 a legitimate out to a flush draw?"

If your analysis is correct, yes.

If you had said that on the flop you put him on a set, two pair, or a flush draw, it would be a more interesting question.

[Uston]

On the plus side, Clarkmeister may be the only one on the forum who likes the preflop completion in the first hand.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
On the plus side, Clarkmeister may be the only one on the forum who likes the preflop completion in the first hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is likely true. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tolbiny]

"If you had said that on the flop you put him on a set, two pair, or a flush draw, it would be a more interesting question."

I think its a clear fold if a flush draw is a possibilitie because 1. he made it on the turn and it is certainly higher than mine, 2. i cannont value bet the river into his set or 2 pair when a 4-flush comes as effectively.

also, this guy would never three bet a draw on the flop.

[J.A.Sucker]

I hate completing hands like Q6o, J4, Kx, and even Ax. These hands always get me into more trouble than they're worth. At least Ax where x < 6 can make a wheel, so I will sometimes play this against certain people. Give me 2 suited cards that are medium, like 58s or something any day.

[tolbiny]

i laughed so hard when i read that, i almost forgot that i was the guy making the call. but then it occured to me that obviously everyone (except for clark) is jeolous of my poker playing prowess and you are trying to change the way i play so i wont be as dominant a force in the poker world, and i have one thing to say,
success is yours, i well no longer play Q6 in the sb- unless they are the same color (next step, tightening up until they are the same suit).

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate completing hands like Q6o, J4, Kx, and even Ax. These hands always get me into more trouble than they're worth. At least Ax where x < 6 can make a wheel, so I will sometimes play this against certain people. Give me 2 suited cards that are medium, like 58s or something any day.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he doesn't have the choice between 85s and Q6o. The dealer gave him Q6o.

I play it. These hands make money for me and on top of it, they add even more value to my Shania. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now, I don't go around here telling people to play it. Frankly its not worth the effort to argue, and for some I'd guess that they shouldn't play it. But it makes money for me, sure as defending my BB with K3o http://tinyurl.com/2u4c2 makes money against aggressive steal-raisers.

[Paluka]

I would never complete from the sb here. I would consider folding it when the sb is 2/3 the bb.

[Gabe]

"These hands make money for me and on top of it, they add even more value to my Shania."

I used to make money with those hands, too, right before I went broke. Who's Shania?

[J.A.Sucker]

Agreed on all counts. They say "styles make fights" and this is true in poker as in boxing.

[Clarkmeister]

Shania: http://tinyurl.com/3eu3w

[Ulysses]

Good thread. I fold K3o in the BB. And Q6o in the SB. But I play bad.

[Ed Miller]

My real question i guess is that with my read on the turn should i have considered my 6 a legitimate out to a flush draw?

Absolutely. Getting 7-to-1, you have a big overlay even if you happen to be drawing dead occasionally. I DEFINITELY would not have folded on the turn.

I would have folded preflop, though.

[tolbiny]

"i would have folded preflop though"

alright, say you got this hand in the big blind (so now you got no choice but to play her), would you checkraise the flop with it, and if so, lay it down to a three bet?

[Ed Miller]

Assume we have no read, for the moment:

If I chose to check (rather than bet out), I would check-raise if it were checked to a late position bettor who bet. If 3-bet, I would generally call the 3-bet and check-fold unimproved on the turn. Of course, I would consider the third heart an improvement and call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now, the read you have on your opponent is that he is considerably more passive than average. That means his initial bet carries more weight, as does his 3-bet. Given your read, I might have adjusted my "default" play to fold either to the first bet or to the 3-bet.

But no matter your read, I think you need to call on the turn.

[Gabe]

ditto

[spamuell]

Thanks Clark, that was a great thread, one of the few very long threads that was worth reading the whole thing (save the part about "he offended me/you're arrogant").

I searched for backdoor's posts but I didn't find any, probably because he wasn't registered. Did he carry out his threat and leave the forums? I hope not, he really made some excellent points his counter-intuitive discussion was very thought provoking.

[Dreamer]

That was a nice line.
Interestingly with Q6 if another Q comes on the turn after calling the 3 bet I am not sure thats much of an improvement and probably spells doom with some possible crying calls.

[Clarkmeister]

He posts about twice a year now, when something particularly interesting sparks his interest. His handle is Sredni Vashtar and he also authored the "Think About Shania" thread that I linked earlier in a response to Gabe within this thread.

I wish he posted more, but he doesn't, so I take what i can get from him. As you will see in the Shania post, he hasn't lost a step from the K3o days.

[CrackerZack]

He made mention of Srendi in his post in that thread. Strange to think they are one in the same.

[legend42]

"also, this guy would never three bet a draw on the flop."

**************

Are you positive about that? How about betting intially for a free card, then three-betting for the same reason? Even a lot of typically tight players will use this move headsup. So I wouldn't count out a made flush. But if you were certain of your read, then your 6 is likely good.

[Bill Murphy]

"Good thread. I fold K3o in the BB. And Q6o in the SB. But I play bad. "

No, you just play a lot of pot limit. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sredni Vashtar]

Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Afterall, Sredni is immortal. Have you forgotten /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Had I known guys like you were benefiting from my posts I would have posted more. Silent lurkers you.
It's really nice to see how many of you have developed and become excellent thinkers, clarkmeister near the top. It's also nice to see more thinking about Shania- she is quite important once you have mastered the fundamentals. She will become your religion and your love. Shania isn't just about meta game either, there is lots of unexplored Shania in just the present hand. More later.

Some of you have become pretty good writers as well. This forum has benefited in many ways aside from poker theory.

Sredni is working on a poker theory book, Advanced Poker theory for Ferrets and other Terrans. It should have some interesting takes/ different angles and deals with some things never before in print. But Sredni insists there must be some quirky stuff in it too. Ferrets.

Clark, if Sredni actually completes it (30% chance), you will get a free copy to berate.

Also might need some pokerthinker proofreaders...

SV.

PS how do you find those old posts? Sredni can't even find them, and his senses are more tuned in than the average human.

[ShortStack]

What an interesting hand and an even more interesting post. Here's a beginner's take.

SB: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Very marginal hand in the SB. I'd call. This is a razor thin call.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. As first to act, I'd check-raise, and raise back if re-raised. I wouldn't go farther than that. I liked your call.

Turn: 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. You have top pair with a poor kicker versus a 3-card flush board. You check-folded. I think you should have bet here, based on your top-pair, crap kicker, and the flush draw with no A is almost bet-able by itself.

If I understand "Shania" correctly, I believe the concept involves your profit on later hands resulting from your play here (in that you are playing one big continuous poker game.) You should have at least called, if not bet.

Regarding your second hand with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif; I'd raise with as little as 77 here and maybe re-raise with JJ. Good raise.

Flop: A /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Everyone checked to you. You bet. I'd raise if I could but as it was checked to you, good bet. The Turn brought a 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Three-card flush boards worry me a bit and your pair is overshadowed by an Ace, so if someone bet here, I'd most likely fold. But if checked to me, why not bet? If raised I'd fold. I think you should have bet.

The River was the Ten /images/graemlins/club.gif. Bad news! Check and fold territory here.

That's my opinion. I've played less than three months and much of my thinking appears to offend some very experienced and good players here. I only invite original thought.

Good Luck!

[Clarkmeister]

"Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Afterall, Sredni is immortal. Have you forgotten "

No, we just lament that it is so infrequent that Sredni has time to consider such non-Ferret matters as poker.

"Had I known guys like you were benefiting from my posts I would have posted more."

It is a large reason why I still post a lot. I get many private messages and emails from lurkers. There are far more than we all realize. As I learned from posters such as yourself, I now try and give back by passing that knowledge along.

"Clark, if Sredni actually completes it (30% chance), you will get a free copy to berate."

Cool. I am still waiting for your websit. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

"PS how do you find those old posts? Sredni can't even find them, and his senses are more tuned in than the average human."

I have a good memory and can usually find something in particular within a dozen searches. I actually found the K3 thread on the first try. Sometimes I'm lucky, sometimes I'm not.

[Styles]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed on all counts. They say "styles make fights" and this is true in poker as in boxing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't start fights, and I wish people would quit saying that!




/images/graemlins/wink.gif