THE OFFICIAL WPT FOXWOODS THREAD

[daryn]

ok someone has to take the initiative,

let's get it on!


i would have loved to be in this one. unfortunately it was not meant to be as i did not win the $500 NL WPF event as planned /images/graemlins/frown.gif

what's up with hoyt doing his darndest to give the tournament away?

everyone hates on phil but man! the guy is really getting unlucky!

who else hates that bogus call on the end by mohammed (sp?) with Q high.. what a fast call too. take your time man there's $500,000 at stake!

[CrackerZack]

By the end, I was counting the seconds till Hoyt busted him with all the celebrating and the "poker crew".

[daryn]

yeah the whole poker crew thing was pretty dumb. also didn't i read somewhere that negreanu was making fun of the tribal dancers who brought out the money? [censored]! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

anyways, the thing i loved about this one was hoyt's appearance. all in black, cowboy hat and mirrored shades, how beautiful. i think i need a new table image /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[lunchmeat]

I was at the taping (I'm the incredibly sexy guy sitting behind Mike Matusow)... and between the last two hands they showed on tv, Mo and Hoyt played at least an hour of the most passive, piss-poor poker I've ever seen. It was a relief when it finally ended.

I was surprised at the quality of play at the final table. (Same goes for last week's WPT episode). Although I now think Hoyt played better than I originally gave him credit for (he seemed to have some good reads on Hellmuth), his all-ins still strike me as bizarre...

Am I the only one who heard VVP call Kumar the "Calcutta Cardsmith?"

[Vagos]

I thought Mohamed was probably getting frustrated at the end and hence he called with Q8, but how can I tell????? We missed all those hands in between the AJ double up and the final hand. I like how Mohamed played that AK though, in position against a guy who will go all in with any two.

Hellmuth got very unlucky...tonight's show will only make more jealous fish bash Hellmuth which is sad. He played well tonight I thought but Hoyt outdrew him a few times. And I loved the last line Hellmuth said..."I can't wait to get another crack at you Hoyt, oh yea nice play Mo, great hand". The guy just makes for great tv and he's a great player. I'm definately pro-Hellmuth.
-Andy

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
I was at the taping (I'm the incredibly sexy guy sitting behind Mike Matusow)... and between the last two hands they showed on tv, Mo and Hoyt played at least an hour of the most passive, piss-poor poker I've ever seen. It was a relief when it finally ended.

I was surprised at the quality of play at the final table. (Same goes for last week's WPT episode). Although I now think Hoyt played better than I originally gave him credit for (he seemed to have some good reads on Hellmuth), his all-ins still strike me as bizarre...

Am I the only one who heard VVP call Kumar the "Calcutta Cardsmith?"

[/ QUOTE ]

i was wondering what happened. he doubled up to about 750k and the next hand he had 450k. i didnt think phil got that unlucky. in a couple of the situations he didnt push them out while he was ahead just begging to be drawn out on. he is very good and has some of the best instincts ive ever seen but i cant stand him. lose with just a little dignity(sp?) for once.

[Tyler Durden]

It was great when they did a piece on Hellmuth and they showed him getting busted at Lucky Chances by the Magician, Antonio Esasdfadgajdgh (sp?) and you could hear Phil saying "show some class kid, shake my hand."

Phil really did get unlucky tonight, his look was priceless when he found out that Hoyt needed running sevens to beat him.

[toots]

I really wish they'd show more of the tournament than just the final 6.

Having said that, half the reason I watch these is just to see Helmuth throw a wobbly after a bad beat.

[theBruiser500]

I posted this in Pot NO Limit section, not realyl sure where it should go...

Couple of hands I've seen in the WPT which I think are interesting so far.

1) Hellmuth raises with Jc8c, Muhhomad calls behind him with 88, ACkerman calls from the BB with T5. Flop comes giving Hellmuth a straight flush draw, and Muhhomad nothing, there's an overcard or two to Muhhomad's 88. Acerkmen leads out big (is his gutsy play here okay or too fancy and foolhardy?) then Hellmuth just minraises him. If I rememer right, Acerkmen just needed to call another 70,000, the pot was 300,000... Of course Acerkmen had nothing so it didn't matter, but why did Hellmuth raise so little? Is a raise that little really effective?

2) Muhoomad comes in for a raise in EP with AK, Hoyt reraises from 50,000 to 200,000 from the BB wtih 33, muhoomed thinks fora while and calls. Flop comes AJx and Hoyt leads out all in. Is this lead out all in here good? At first it struck me as a bad play, but maybe he can get him off TT QQ or lower piars...

danny

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Hellmuth raises with Jc8c, Muhhomad calls behind him with 88, ACkerman calls from the BB with T5. Flop comes giving Hellmuth a straight flush draw, and Muhhomad nothing, there's an overcard or two to Muhhomad's 88. Acerkmen leads out big (is his gutsy play here okay or too fancy and foolhardy?) then Hellmuth just minraises him. If I rememer right, Acerkmen just needed to call another 70,000, the pot was 300,000... Of course Acerkmen had nothing so it didn't matter, but why did Hellmuth raise so little? Is a raise that little really effective?


[/ QUOTE ]

After this hand, as Phil was stacking his chips he said "I'm just glad Mo didn't flop a set on me"


Cool how he knew the guy had a pocket pair eh?

[jayadd]

My one pet peeve when it comes to hellmuth and it is minor for those who dont play in major tourneys is, He has gotten caught 3x now touching other peoples chips on TV and still no penalty or mention of it other than another player the first season by sexton. I guess the reason for my dissatisfaction for this is, i had a player touch my chips (which is usually a warning first time but second offense is a penalty) and then say to me its not that big of a deal.
A bad analogy for this infraction is how high school basketball- after a free throw attempt a player crosses the line prior to the ball being realeased is called everytime as a lane violation but in the NBA it is always happening and no violation is ever called.
A rule is A rule and phil should know this but he gets away from it.

1 more thing i didnt think what he said to hoyt after getting knocked out was very classy but compared to magic man ( which was funny) i thought phil could have come up with something better.

[Duke]

I was very impressed with Hellmuth keeping it together. Honestly.

That 77 beat would have had me a bit irritated.

~D

[The Bear]

Alright,

I was at this taping and I'm consolidating all my comments in to this one post.

First, let's get this straight. Phil didn't get unlucky; he was badly outplayed throughout the entire final table.

Oh, so Hoyt caught running 7's against him on that one hand. Yes, that's unlucky, but what nobody is mentioning is that the pot would have been totally inconsequential if Hoyt hadn't caught runners. Reconstruct the action. Hoyt makes a bluff raise at the flop. Nothing wrong with that. He gets called by Phil and completely shuts down. Barring a miracle, he is in check-fold mode for the rest of the hand. The pot is about 160k at that point, I think (they both put in 70k on the flop). It's NOT of tournament-altering size. If Phil takes it down, Hoyt probably steals back the money he lost in 3 orbits. So Hoyt does catch the miracle, and he's able to get 160k MORE from Hellmuth. He played the hand just fine. Hellmuth is a baby.

The only other "bad beat" that Phil endured was when he made trip K's on the turn against Hoyt's top pair, gutshot, nut flush draw hand!!! Notice that he got NO money in with the best of it!! And he has the nerve to refer to it as a two-outer later in the show!! Hoyt had 13 clean outs for the river (8 clubs, 2 aces, and 3 queens). Come on, whining about a 13-outer. What a fu**ing joke.

And then when he lies about having queens because he feels sorry for himself and wants sympathy from the crowd for another "suckout" by Hoyt. That one was simply classic.

Furthermore, and you didn't see this on TV, Hoyt was absolutely manhandling that table in between the "TV hands". It was very clear that he had a well-formed strategy going in; namely to put in a lot of big raises preflop to steal from the small stacks while they looked for a hand and tried to move up the ladder. He was also clearly aware of Phil's reluctance to commit his chips before the flop and exploited this weakness beautifully. I cannot even count the number of times that Phil called up his small blind and then folded to a raise from Hoyt in the BB. Phil was hemmoraghing chips with his weak limps. It was a thing of beauty.

It should also be noted that the other players at the table made no effort to adjust to Hoyt's play. Phil even says: "It's okay, I just have to play my game", right before he bleeds off more of his stack. The stubborness was mind-boggling. Limp, limp, Hoyt moves in, fold, fold. It happened over and over and over again. Here's a thought: GET THE CHIPS IN FIRST!! Hoyt was getting out of the way in almost every raised pot. It's not like he was calling huge bets with 83o.

As for the last hand, I'm pretty sure blinds were at 50-100k at that point. Mo needed to find a hand and go with it before he got blinded to the felt, so I don't think his call with Q8s is bad there. Of course, he should have been getting his money in first, but since he displayed an utter inability to do that (he raised Hoyt preflop fewer than 5 times in HU play), the call wasn't that bad.

Overall, Hoyt owned these guys, and he deserves credit for a dominating final table performance. He also deserves credit for having the nuts to keep playing hard after doubling Mo up a couple of times.

And in closing, BY FAR the worst play of the night was when Mo folded his two pair in HU play. When he turned those faceup at the filming, I almost fell out of my chair. Given the way that matchup was going, there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that he should have folded there. Not without the most reliable tell ever on Hoyt. Look at Ted Forrest's reaction when Mo folds. He's dumbfounded. (Note: The shot they showed could have been stock footage and not necessarily his true reaction, but I imagine it was.)

So that's it. Hellmuth lovers, flame away.


The Bear

[toots]

Nice analysis; thanks.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
I was very impressed with Hellmuth keeping it together.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is untrue. Phil was walking around and clearly steaming for perhaps the next 25 hands, probably more. Sure, for Phil Hellmuth this is "keeping it together", but for any other professional poker player it's a total breakdown.


The Bear

[jayadd]

bear i thought only one post about this? your just like phil with his QQ hmmm......

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
bear i thought only one post about this? your just like phil with his QQ hmmm......


[/ QUOTE ]

Ha ha. Touche. In my defense, that post went up while I was writing my rant.

[Rushmore]

I actually WOKE MY GIRLFRIEND UP by mistake saying, "What the hell is he doing touching that guy's chips??!!"

I think I was reacting mostly to the fact that nobody said a word about it. I don't care if I am the "nobody rookie amateur" at the table, nobody but me and the dealer will be counting out my stacks.

Imagine someone reaching over and grabbing Hellmuth's chips. There'd be weeping, wailing, sobbing, whining, bleeding, and, strangely enough, vomiting.

But it would make for great TV.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
So that's it. Hellmuth lovers, flame away.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, the sound of silence is deafening.

[Abagadro]

[ QUOTE ]
making fun of the tribal dancers who brought out the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that was the entire Pequot nation.

[TimTimSalabim]

I was playing at Mirage the other day and a guy at the table next to us went ballistic over someone touching his chips, calling the floor over and making a scene. So I was *very* surprised when I watched the WPT tonight and saw that.

I've always thought Hellmuth was a great player, and I still do, he makes some great plays and great reads. But I'm also becoming more and more convinced that he calls off a lot of his chips just so the other guy has to turn over his hand and then he can whine about how badly the guy played it. If he could somehow fix that leak, he'd be practically unstoppable.

[theBruiser500]

I agree, it looked like Hoyt played great poker, outplaying hellmuth.

It was pretty stupid how mohammed kept getting up and cheering for himself.

[Rushmore]

Mo made a terrible laydown with the kings up. It might have cost him the tournament.

Then, the same guy calls all of his chips preflop with Q8 suited. I will not listen to anyone try to tell me this is a good call.

Hoyt's allin madness was a disaster waiting to happen. When you play like this, don't you realize that you're essentially either winning the blinds or losing the tournament? It's not like he was RE-RAISING with those rags, doing it with something in the middle of the table.

Didn't anyone else hear VVP miscall the Campus Kid's hand "Sixes full?" I don't recall Howard Cosell ever calling a field goal a touchdown.

Hellmuth. Good lord. He really comes off like a clown. He's just so damned graceless with his insecurities and egomania. And sure, he got unlucky once or twice. But he ALLOWED himself to get unlucky (i.e. checking the turn on the running sevens hand--a med/lg. sized bet wins the pot on the turn. If you're gonna call a big bet on the end, in a situation where you'll lose to as little as Q/8, why not take a stab on the turn and muck to a raise?). Anyway, he's unbearable.

Lastly, the Poker Punks, or whatever they were called. I hate this stuff. It demeans the game. I guess Negreanu didn't watch the episode where he made a monkey of himself last season. I really respect his play and would like to see him stop the fratboy routine. It's juvenile.

Man, I love poker. If only I were any damned GOOD at it.

[theBruiser500]

I don't think Hoyt's all in stuff was bad, looked like good agressive poker to me.

[Toro]

Andy Warhol said everyone gets 5 minutes of fame, well I got about 5 seconds. It all revolved around Hoyt and the hand he busted me. None of it was final day action, I didn't make it that far. The first glimpse was during the intro and then it was repeated later when they did the lttle in-depth thing on Hoyt.

I'm the guy standing up next to Hoyt with his hands on his head and you can hear someone say "Oh my god!" That wasn't me saying that because what I said would have been bleeped.

I've related this before in this forum but I'll probably never play again in a $10,000 event so you're gonna just have to indulge me. We were into the second day and the field was starting to whittle down. They moved Hoyt to our table immediately to my right and he was the big stack by alot and he started to bully immediately. The rest of us all had 20,000T to 40,000T and he had about 130,000T. Blinds were something like 500/1000 and he kept making either 20,000, 30,000 or 40,000 preflop raises. Anyone who called was essentially all-in.

I've got about 35,000T and I'm just waiting for an Ace or a pair to call him depending on my position because of course there were other players to worry about. Well careful what you wish for. He raises to 40,000 and I got QQ. I call and and everyone else folds and he says "you caught me pardner". Well no [censored] Hoyt, did you think we were all bunch of morons who thought you had a hand everytime.

So he turns up 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the flop comes all diamonds and my two queens are black so I don't even have a draw except runner, runner. So my impression of the guy through this personal experience and from stories I'd heard and read (Hellmuth's Hand of the Week J9 v. J7 hand) etc was that the guy just got lucky to win.

But after watching the telecast last night I got to say the guy is one helluva player.

[sleepyjoeyt]

I do not consider myself a "Hellmuth Lover" but I would say that he is a great no limit holdem player. As I've said before, if he really sucks as bad as most of you seem to think, than he is the luckiest human being to ever walk the face of the earth.

I don't think last night was his best performance but he was still at the final table. And that seems to be a situation that he finds himself in very often.

Is he somewhat of a whining pussy? No question he is.

Does he pout in a way that would cause me to reprimand my son? yep.

Did he play poorly at the final table? Certainly I think he could have played better.

But to completely trash the guy as a bad player is just wrong.

To not recognize him as one of the best (if not THE BEST) no limit hold'em player around is just to ignore the facts.

OK, all you wannabes who claim he is just lucky (for 15 years in a row?) flame away.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
To not recognize him as one of the best (if not THE BEST) no limit hold'em player around is just to ignore the facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean touranment player.

[scotnt73]

i remember the clip. werent you wearing a cap? or was that that the guy that actually said oh my god.

[Wingnut]

[ QUOTE ]
but what nobody is mentioning is that the pot would have been totally inconsequential if Hoyt hadn't caught runners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, no one has mentioned that Phil gave him the free river card with which to pull the miracle. After the hand, Hoyt said something about "I was done putting money in that pot", and while it might've been just needling Phil by saying "I'm not going to turn down infinite pots odds", you gotta think that he would not have called any kind of substantial bet on the turn with 2nd pair.

My $.02

-David

[sleepyjoeyt]

Correct.

My omission.

[Toro]

No, no cap. I had my hands on my head and I'm standing directly to Hoyt's right. I don't know who said "Oh my God" and if fact didn't even remember it as I was in a complete daze when it happened.

[Rushmore]

Then let me ask:

On a per hand basis, what was his goal?

Since he clearly wouldn't want a call when he's holding 83 or 92 or whatever cheese he had, and since there was nothing but the blinds in the middle, the following statement must be true:

He was risking all of his chips, and his entire tournament, to pick up the blinds, because if he is called, he is WAY behind.

[Rushmore]

[Wingnut]

The beginning of that post was about the final hand (which I didn't watch), so I must've just skimmed over the rest of it. Again, my apologies.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Mo made a terrible laydown with the kings up. It might have cost him the tournament.

Then, the same guy calls all of his chips preflop with Q8 suited. I will not listen to anyone try to tell me this is a good call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw only a little of Mo's play, as I was at his table for the start of day 2. I only played about 2 hours before taking a beat by Hennigan.

In that time, all I saw was a loose, aggressive semi-maniac. I never saw him make a big laydown. Like Hoyt, he was also making big all-in raises with 72o and such. And doing it at times where the risk and reward were out-of-whack. I was shocked he made that heads-up laydown with two pair. I saw him make calls on day 2, at a full table, where he had EVERY reason to believe he was behind. And he was behind, and usually got lucky.

He may be a very good player, but I didn't see it.

And Hoyt may also have a lot of poker skill. But constantly coming in for a 20-40xBB raise, and doing so with weak hands, doesn't demonstrate that fact to my satisfaction.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Easy E]

I only saw parts of the Foxwood tournament last night. As much as I always enjoy Phil H getting knocked around and whining, I only have a few comments:

BAD graphic choice for the back of the video cards- my spouse kept asking "did they just turn an Ace?" Don't confuse viewers with your tiny electronic cards- use a bland back!

Brian, next time someone asks you "do you want me to call?" SHUT YOUR MOUTH. I didn't really like his second all-in over the top of two players (immediate next hand in WPT show, was it the next hand in the real tournament?) with AToff, especially after he showed the 52off that he went all-in with earlier. Is it just me, or does Brian really want any callers here? Ignoring that fact that the Kings were crippled....

I didn't see most of the show, so I don't know about Phil's general play. He did get some beats put on him at a bad time, but wasn't he making some moves with trailing hands that cost him a number of chips? Maybe he needs to concentrate more on what he is doing than what Lady Luck is doing.
One hand- the KQ? of Phil vs. Hoyt Corkins T8? I can't remember the preflop action- did Hoyt or Phil raise preflop? My question is on the flop- should Hoyt have flat-called the J8J flop and checked the 8 turn behind Phil? I questioned the passive play before then, unless he thought that Phil would bluff off his chips. If you put Phil on overcards, do you really want to let him draw to them?

Another hand between the two of them- the Kx of Phil vs. AQ? of Hoyt. When the trip King came for Phil, was it smart to try for the check-raise? At least, that's what I assume Phil was trying to do.
And I really didn't understand why Phil called the final $120K. What hand did he put Hoyt on, after the preflop raise and bet out on the flop, that Hoyt would check the turn with and bluff on the river? I know you want to try to trap someone for all of their chips in NL, but was Phil's stack big enough to take chances and give free draws?

Mohamed got some really good luck in the right places- he should donate some of his winnings to charity in penance.

Anyone know where Hoyt disappeared to for 10 years, as reported? And why?

And the last 15 minutes of the show was a perfect example of why the WPT needs to change the 10:58 rule. Almost all of the drama of several of the hands for anyone who knows poker and the way the WPT works.
The biggest hand was where Mohamed went into the tank with his K8 two pair on the 3-flush turn, when Hoyt goes all in with KQ drawing to the four-card flush. At 10:45, you know that one of the three options- Mohamed calling all in and getting busted out- isn't going to happen. Mohamed was either calling and winning, or more likely (given the time constraints of the TV show) he was folding here.
Granted, the drama level would be pretty high for less-knowledgeable viewers, but the WPT really needs to mix up their play with these endings!

Same thing for the 10:58 hand- Mike and Vince can throw out all of the bullsh*t drama phrases and spout false "could this be it?!" teasers, but we all KNOW that Mohamed is not going to draw out on this hand.
End a show or two slightly earlier, then do a recap of the winner's and 2nd place finisher's advance through the tournament's X days. Show some of their big/lucky hands. SOMETHING!

Anyone else think that the Indian ceremony was a bit degrading? I love Indian dance ceremonies, but this just felt slimy. And is all of that Foxwoods success showing up in the feeding lines a bit too much?

By the way, I really like the improvements on the WPT site. Previews of the next show, with the player chip counts, is nice.

Next week- the Paul Phillips second-chance show!

[toots]

You know, Helmuth just never disappoints.

[theBruiser500]

Well, he raised all in with QT I think mohamed had about 650,000 with 25,000/50,000 blinds... first of all, there's a good chance mohamed is going to fold this, and second of all, even if he does Hoyt can draw out. Mohamed called with A7, he really wasn't that big a favorite. Hoyt kept putting Mohamed all in, with 83 vs 44, and then with AJ vs. two undercards... Even if Hoyt has the worst hand, if he can keep stealing blinds when they're so high, and if he just keeps putting his opponents all in even if he's getting the worst of it, eventually he's going to win.

[Rushmore]

So I'm not stupid or crazy then. Praise the lord.

Anyway, I find it difficult to understand why people here and the commentary crew at WPT telecasts cannot find it in themselves to call this spade a spade. We have seen some unbelievably bad, indefensible play on these telecasts, especially in the past two weeks. I realize some of the players involved are "respected" and/or "proven," but I don't care.

At least Hellmuth never made any utterly indefensible plays. Some were debatable, but none were utterly in defiance of mathematics and card sense.

[Rushmore]

[Rushmore]

Let's see...the representatives of a noble tribe of people who have a great love of nature and all things natural dance onto a television stage carrying bundles of cash to be given to the winner of a gambling tournament.

Nah, that's not demeaning at all.

[rbenuck4]

I was watching my buddy play at that same table so I saw the hand that you are referring to. We were all shocked and everyone in the audience was groaning when the flop came 3 diamonds. I felt really bad for you man. My buddy was sitting directly to Hoyt's left, so you can imagine the tough situation he was in (chip leader acting directly after him). When tables finally moved, my buddy got put directly to the left of Phil Helmuth, so his luck for table selection was nil, and he finished 29th (two out of the money) getting busted out by Phil on a coin flip. It was a lot of fun watching Hoyt play though. He really dominated the table, and put the pressure on everyone else. Whenever pressure was put on him, he was gone.

[Easy E]

my understanding is that gambling was a big part of many American Indian cultures. Whether the Pequots? shared this fascination is unknown to me.

Glad I wasn't the only one feeling like a stick in the mud.

[Rushmore]

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
my understanding is that gambling was a big part of many American Indian cultures. Whether the Pequots? shared this fascination is unknown to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way it was done though was incredibly tacky. I'd feel like a clown if I were one of those Native Indians dancing out there on tv with the money and clothing and everything...

danny

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
and between the last two hands they showed on tv, Mo and Hoyt played at least an hour of the most passive, piss-poor poker I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured they cut out quite a bit considering we see Mo double up to almost 1.5 Mil against Hoyt's 83s and then they come back from commercial and Mo has under 600K.

[Toro]

Was your buddy the same guy I got involved in a hand with earlier when we both had AK? I think it was before Hoyt got to our table. I was UTG and raised about 3 or 4 times the BB and it came all the way around to Havenson who reraised me about double or triple my raise. Your buddy, if it was him went into a real long thinking mode and verbally said "what a tough spot this is" and then re-raised all-in.

Your buddy was taking so long that I had a long time to think about what I wanted to do and put them both on hands. I put them both on pairs in the 10 to Queen range and decided that with all that money in the pot, I was going to gamble with AK as if I made the hand it would put me in great shape to make the final table.

So when it came back to me, everyone expected me to fold but I didn't and it only took about 2 seconds for me to push all my chips in. Now it came back to Havenson and he went into a long, long think. He even stood up and spotted TJ Cloutier in the crowd and said "TJ, I need help with this decision" and TJ said "kid, you're sitting there and I'm out here, you don't need no help from me" or something to that effect and everyone laughed. I think Havenson must have put me on AA or KK because of how fast I called and he eventually folded and told everyone he had QQ.

Your buddy(again if it was him) and I both turned up AK and chopped the pot and Havenson was sick about the hand since no or Ace or King hit the board. Of course Havenson got the last laugh as he made the final table and we didn't.

[lunchmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't anyone else hear VVP miscall the Campus Kid's hand "Sixes full?" I don't recall Howard Cosell ever calling a field goal a touchdown

[/ QUOTE ]

Acekerman did have sixes full, on the flop anyway. I'm still fascinated by VVP's "Calcutta Cardsmith" line... (3rd time I've mentioned it here).

I agree that Hellmuth is annoying, but I don't think you can blame him for checking the turn when Hoyt caught runner, runner. Hoyt raised the flop, and Hellmuth called with top pair. It would have been a strange play IMO for Hellmuth to bet out on the turn when a 7 came.

[wayabvpar]

I have a great idea for a compilation show the WPT can use during the off-season- Phil Hellmuth's Bad Beats. I seriously could watch nothing but Phil getting the worst of it for 2 straight hours, crying and whining about it the whole time; that is quality entertainment right there.

He is a very good tournament player, but he makes it impossible to root for him (both because he is so smug when winning and SO entertaining when losing). Maybe we can take a collection up and bribe the WPT to get Sam Grizzle at the same final table as Phil next time.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
Acekerman did have sixes full, on the flop anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

He called it sixes full at the end, but I see your point, I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still fascinated by VVP's "Calcutta Cardsmith" line...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I thought that was hysterical, certainly better than the Carlos Mortenson/Antonio Banderas nonsense.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that Hellmuth is annoying, but I don't think you can blame him for checking the turn when Hoyt caught runner, runner. Hoyt raised the flop, and Hellmuth called with top pair. It would have been a strange play IMO for Hellmuth to bet out on the turn when a 7 came.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said he should be "blamed," merely that it was an avoidable situation, particularly for a player who has the ability to look into the soul of others, as I keep hearing.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]

He was risking all of his chips, and his entire tournament, to pick up the blinds, because if he is called, he is WAY behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not gonna claim that this is the best tourney strategy, but he did have a commanding stack lead pretty much the entire time, and at least from what we saw on TV, he never made the play when he wouldn't still have the chip lead after losing. He never risked his tournement and instead was forcing his opponent to make a decision for theit tournament.

I mean if a guy goes all in, you know he could have anything and you are looking at J9 or some other mediocre hand you pretty much have to fold. Even if you have AK and he had 27o you have about a 30% chance of going home. Unless you get a big pair, you aren't gonna feel comfortable about calling. Additionally, the blinds seems pretty big to me at the end (25K/50K? + antes) his opponent has a 600K stack and there is almost 100K in the middle, it doesn't take many steals to insure you self for when you do get called.

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not gonna claim that this is the best tourney strategy, but he did have a commanding stack lead pretty much the entire time, and at least from what we saw on TV, he never made the play when he wouldn't still have the chip lead after losing. He never risked his tournement and instead was forcing his opponent to make a decision for theit tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, this is a legitimate point, but does not justify this type of play. Granted, the blinds were high, and that has some bearing on the subject, but remember, he was doing this throughout the tourney, after he got a stack.

I'm just not a fan, I guess.

[scotnt73]

are you sure he was doing it throughout the tourney or just the hands they showed on tv? it appeared he was going all in on tv every hand and now reading this it seems they just didnt put the other 70% where he didnt go all in on the air.

[scotnt73]

also what was up with the holdem flash cards being sold during the commercials? what could possibly be on them that you cant get online for free?

[baggins]

great idea - Hellmuth's Bad Beats highlights...

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Hellmuth raises with Jc8c, Muhhomad calls behind him with 88, ACkerman calls from the BB with T5. Flop comes giving Hellmuth a straight flush draw, and Muhhomad nothing, there's an overcard or two to Muhhomad's 88. Acerkmen leads out big (is his gutsy play here okay or too fancy and foolhardy?) then Hellmuth just minraises him. If I rememer right, Acerkmen just needed to call another 70,000, the pot was 300,000... Of course Acerkmen had nothing so it didn't matter, but why did Hellmuth raise so little? Is a raise that little really effective?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is if your name is Phil Hellmuth. What's the kid thinking when the greatest tournament player in the world raises him the minimum?

From Phil's POV, he may have read the kid for weakness and wanted to raise to get Mo's pocket pair out of there. Apparently he knew Mo had a PP b/c as Phil was stacking the chips he said "I'm just glad Mo didn't flop a set on me." I don't remember who acted first but if Mo comes over the top of Phil's raise he can let it go with minimal damage to his stack. So the minimum raise served a few purposes:

1) get it heads up with a guy taking a stab at it
2) getting info from the other guy (Mo)

Excellent play by Phil, IMO.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
It was great when they did a piece on Hellmuth and they showed him getting busted at Lucky Chances by the Magician, Antonio Esasdfadgajdgh (sp?) and you could hear Phil saying "show some class kid, shake my hand."


[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I must have missed that...what exactly was the guy doing instead of shaking hands/

[daryn]

he was doing "the wave" with his hands

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
great idea - Hellmuth's Bad Beats highlights...

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Lazymeatball]

Daryn,

In future would you please post this thread in the proper forum and stop cluttering up the News Views and Gossip forum.

There is important work to be done in here and 5 page threads like this make it hard for me to find out definitively if "joebuttons" is Phil Ivey on ultimatebet.com

Please note that there is now a Forum labelled "TV Tournaments"

[Bill Murphy]

Mo doubles up w/AJ v 83. Pot is ~1.5 mil. One or two hands later the 1:58 hand occurs, anrd the total pot is 1.1 mil?? Or did I miss something.

By the way, I recall the above AJ-83 hand occured right after Hoyt's big semi-bluff w/KQ against Mo's K8's.

When Hoyt asked for a count he appeared to be shocked at how much Mo had. Looked like Mo had some big color hidden in the back, which against the rules, right? I highly doubt Hoyt does another slide w/rags if he knew Mo had ~750K. But I could have this all wrong.

Of course, Mike & the Jessica Simpson of Poker missed this completely. Can understand why they emphasized Meltdown The Hellmuth in the editing, but there was also some real poker played, too.

[BottlesOf]

I read this and thought it was a funny joke.

Then I saw the forum.

[Army Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
Daryn,

In future would you please post this thread in the proper forum and stop cluttering up the News Views and Gossip forum.

There is important work to be done in here and 5 page threads like this make it hard for me to find out definitively if "joebuttons" is Phil Ivey on ultimatebet.com

Please note that there is now a Forum labelled "TV Tournaments"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how serious you are.. but this thread was started well before the TV Tourney Forum existed. Daryn did no off-topic posting.

[Easy E]

at least not on the left index.

You're not telling me they created a new forum solely for ranting on the TV shows, are you?

[daryn]

yeah i'm pretty sure he was joking. i read his post and then looked over and was surprised to see the new TV tournaments forum!

[Rushmore]

They changed the name from "Poker on TV" to "World Poker Tour, etc."

[Ragnar]

Where does he post the TV listings?--which I love BTW.

Ragnar

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
and if he just keeps putting his opponents all in even if he's getting the worst of it, eventually he's going to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting perspective.

[Nottom]

It works for roulette, why not poker?