KQo at low limit online tables

[SpaceAce]

How do you play KQo against the typical PartyPoker $2/$4 and $3/46 crowd? I haven't compiled exact data on my profit or loss with KQo but I suspect I am not playing it ideally. Here are some specific situations that I am curious about (keeping in mind that I am asking specifically about games on the PartyPoker low limit level):

#1) What do you do with KQo under the gun?

#2) You're in early position with KQo. Let's say you're under the gun + 1. Under the gun limps.

#3) There is an early position or under the gun raise. What do you do with KQo from various positions? Do you adjust your play for various numbers of limpers in this situation?

#4) You hold KQo in middle or late position and the action is folded to you.

Also, how do you adjust your play in the above situations with KQs?

OK, so I know how _I_ play the above hands but how do _you_ play them?

SpaceAce

[scotnt73]

1)raise
2)raise
3)id prob just call here
4)raise

if its KQs id raise #3 as well. i might not be right but i play them like AK depending on my opponents except i wont reraise if im raised back. obviously if i respect any player at the table all this changes but you asked about typical.

[sthief09]

I can't give you an expert opinion, but I think I have enough experience to give you my opinion.

First, I don't fold KQo early in loose games (loose like 4-5 others staying with you, not 8). That is because what you give up in lack of suitedness, you make up for in that you likely dominate 2 or 3 of them. As more and more people play, as majorkong pointed out in his answers to the preflop quiz, dominating someone makes much less of a difference because your top pair is much less likely to hold up, given the implicit collusion.

I think in the game decsribed by majorking, KQo is basically a trash hand, and you should definitely muck it. Its ability to dominate has become much less important, and its lack of dimension diminishes its value greatly.

So that applies for parts 1 and 2.

3. I'll never, ever CALL KQo for a raise. If a maniac raises, and there are ZERO people between us, I might try to isolate by 3-betting, if the rest of the table will fold a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise I fold. If you're dominated, you have 3 outs to win. You have no flush draw, and not much in the way of a straight either.

4. I'll raise this. Your hand is much stronger against few opponents, so you want to manipulate the field so that your hand has the best shot of being profitable. This is by getting 2 or 3 callers. If the next 4 players are so loose that there's no chance any will fold, then there's no point in raising.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
1)raise
2)raise
3)id prob just call here
4)raise

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the first to admit I'm not an expert, but I think this is probably the worst way to play this hand. In a game where you simply can't narrow the field down below 4, raising KQo isn't profitable. KQs is a whole other story.

[Tosh]

1) Dynasty says raise.
2) I wouldn't raise a good player here.
3) Fold.
4) Raise.

[Mikey]

I posted something on KQo and AJo preflop a long time ago and there was a huge debate about it......, check out if you could get it.....

[Festus22]

K-Qo
1. Limp 80%/Raise 20% especially if raises thin the field
2. Same as above
3. Fold
4. Raise

K-Qs
1. Raise just about 100%
2. Same as above
3. I may cold call if there's a caller or two already or if the blinds are loose. Might reraise if there a bunch of cold callers.
4. Raise

[Ken Morris]

I'm new to this post, and relatively new to the game (about 1 yr). However, I do have about 32,000 hands logged in the 3/6 on Party and am taking out about 2 small bets/hr., so my experience may be relevant.

I limp early w/ KQo about half the time, and muck it the other half. I won't call two bets with it, but might 3-bet it late if; there was an open raise by a LAG player, there are only two or three ahead of me, and I think the blinds might give it up. Obviously this opportunity doesn't arise often, so generally I can save the two bets for a better situation.

[ElSapo]

You need to raise KQ in these loose games, because (a) you will narrow the field some; (b) you want to punish people who will call you anyways with hands like KT and QJ. And they will call.

1) Raise
2) Raise
3) Fold. I muck KQo to almost any raise, barring specific reads, and I'm not playing KQs heads up against an EP raiser either.
4) Raise.

You will see, on especially passive tables, that sometimes you will be cold-called with AQ or AK. Good for you, these players will never extract the maximum from you and will also frequently pay you off with second best hands.

I agree, KQ needs to be played delicately at times b/c it does make some fantastic-looking second best hands. But it is still a strong hand, and can be played as such. To simply limp with it, in my opinion, gives up a lot.

I also play AJ the same way, raising first and folding to any raise. These two hands for me epitomize the gap theory.

El Sapo

[Saborion]

So Dynasty says raise?

I used to do that, then someone who's opinion I respect said that he always fold it in EP, and that many others do as well. So now I've started to fold it in EP. Against players I feel are weak I still play it in EP for a raise.

I agree with you on the other points. Those are pretty obvious imo.

[Tosh]

I say Dynasty says that because it holds more weight than if I say it. I raise it too, its profitable in any position at these soft games.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Dynasty says raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know the post where he writes this? I'd like to see his reasons, in case he doesn't post on this thread. Like you, I respect his opinion, and if I think it's wrong to raise, then maybe I have some rethinking to do.

[SpaceAce]

Thanks for all the great replies, everyone. I hope to see a few more before this thread dies off.

SpaceAce

[ElSapo]

I used to do that, then someone who's opinion I respect said that he always fold it in EP, and that many others do as well. So now I've started to fold it in EP. Against players I feel are weak I still play it in EP for a raise.

It's game dependent, but as the question refered to Party 2/4 and 3/6, where you will consistently be called by worse hands, raising is ok. If you're in a tough game where you will only be called by better hands, that changes things.

[Saborion]

Yah, I suppose this is a less profitable raise in 10/20+ games?

What I wonder though, is there a "gray area" where it's better to limp with this hand than to raise with it in EP? If I want to play it, I prefer not limping with it because of some fool that usually folds K6 when faced with calling two cold, but will play it when there's only one bet to him and therefore might hit two pair when I hit the K. Or is this the wrong way to think about it? Should I be happy that he is in because of his dominated hand?

So when going up in limits and playing against, in general, tougher opposition, can it be ok to limp with it? This feels like a raise or fold hand in this position to me.

[ElSapo]

So when going up in limits and playing against, in general, tougher opposition, can it be ok to limp with it? This feels like a raise or fold hand in this position to me.

I don't play much above 5/10 so others may comment better, but here I'd say it's even more of a raise/fold situation. Limping in with hands like KQ would seem to be a larger error in a tougher game. But like I said, others can comment better.

[Saborion]

Much above you say. But you do play in 5/10 regurlary then?
I've been playing a few hands at 5/10 at Party (actually, I've been sitting there for a few hours, not playing many hands since I didn't get much worth playing). The 3 times I've sat down there, the table has had at least two people with at least 40 % VPIP. Not bad. Too bad I couldn't get any cards, and the few times I got something I was beat anyway.

Either way, in those games it did feel like raising KQ UTG would've been the better play. Do you often raise with that hand in 5/10? Or is it seldom the correct opposition for that in your opinion?

[Tosh]

No but I also like raising it UTG because its better than what a lot of callers will have at these limits. I actually don't think there is a big difference in raising, calling or folding though.

There are definitely much bigger leaks than this.

[ElSapo]

I'd raise KQ in a 5/10 game, but my 5/10 experience is all Party and the Taj in A.C. Party games can vary but are good, the Taj games are always good, and raising KQ in either is the right move though I'm still folding it to a raise.

Sorry to imply otherwise, I've never played above 5/10 and it is not my regular game these days.

El Sapo

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]

I also play AJ the same way, raising first and folding to any raise. These two hands for me epitomize the gap theory.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're 3-bet pre I hope you're still paying that 1 SB to see what the flop brings? You sure have the pot odds to do so.

[ElSapo]

If you're 3-bet pre I hope you're still paying that 1 SB to see what the flop brings? You sure have the pot odds to do so.

It's tough to think of a situation where I'll fold for 1 more SB. If it's capped back to me I can release, but I generally call one more if I've raised or limped.

I think Homer brough up the idea of folding KJo in a situation similar, but even then most players felt calling one more to see the flop was right (if I recall correctly).

Two back to you is a different story, however.

El Sapo

[Bob T.]

1 - raise.
2 - raise or call depending on the limper.
3 - fold.
4 - raise.

[Saborion]

Yah. Just wanted to clarify it. Almost sounded as though you folded pre if someone 3-bet your raise, which I had a hard time believing you would. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

Can you explain to me what the gap theory is all about? I know it's a Sklansky-coined term, but I thoguht it only related to tournament play, so I never took the time to learn about it. Thanks!

[ElSapo]

Can you explain to me what the gap theory is all about?

Do a search for a more detailed explanation, but simply put it's the idea that you need a better hand to call a raise with than you do to raise with.

In other words, raise AJ good - call a raise with AJ bad.

El Sapo

[B Dids]

Pary .5/1 I'll raise with them in any spot (depending on the table) and fold to any raise (depending on who it was). There's so many people at that level who will call a pre-flop raise with Kx,Qx and you'll have them outkicked.

[BugsBunny]

I play it very much like AJo. So I'm likely to open raise/limp behind in EP. In later positions if there's already a lot of limpers I'll limp behind. Since there tends to be at least 1 or 2 any A players in these games I won't raise limpers as much with KQo as I would with AJo.

With that said if I'm in LP or MP3 and there's only 1 or 2 limpers in front of me I will raise and try to drive out the players that are left. KQo is happier shorthanded.

If there's a bunch of habitual coldcallers in the game I'm more likely to limp then raise in all positions (depending on relative position to the coldcallers, how many etc)

It's a hand worth playing, as long as you don't overplay it. You *have* to be willing to give it up rather quickly.

Against 5 opponents - 2 of whom play any Group 1-6 hands, 2 of whom play Group 1-7 hands, and one who plays any 2 KQ wins just about it's fair share, no more. That assumes, of course, that you stay to the river each time - which you won't. The worse the hands that your opponents go in with the more likely you should be to play it. The better your opponents the more likely you should be to lay it down in EP. AJo plays better against multiple opponents that play marginal (but valid) hands, because of the A value. But KQ, I suspect, can take down larger pots - because if you hit with it you'll get people chasing more often than if an A comes on the flop.

[SpaceAce]

These replies are great. Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to respond.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

Here's another question: under what circumstances do you give up or not give up your KQo big blind when there is a raise?

SpaceAce

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Dynasty says raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know the post where he writes this? I'd like to see his reasons, in case he doesn't post on this thread. Like you, I respect his opinion, and if I think it's wrong to raise, then maybe I have some rethinking to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in some small stakes thread so if you do a search of my name in the past two weeks, you should find it.

Basically, I said I've been raising both KQo and AJo in just about any game for a while (maybe half a year) and seem to have good results. Previously, I had been limping with both.

I've been raising with these offsuit hands UTG and in almost every position if there are three or fewer limpers ahead of me. The basic reasons for doing it have been stated in this thread.

1. There's a good chance you have the best hand
2. You may get some players to fold stuff like A9o and 65s
3. If you are behind, your opponents usually aren't going to punish you

A reasonable arguement can be made for limping with KQo and AJo to see the flop cheaply. But, once you've got confidence in your post-flop play, I think experiment with raising these hands pre-flop will be good for everybody.

Folding these hands in a typical low-limit game is a serious mistake. They're definitely +EV with so many opponents limping with trash and chasing without odds.

[Trix]

AJo Thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=564008&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=&vc=1)

[lefty rosen]

King Queen off is your bread and butter moneymaker on monkey low limit tables. The ace anything clowns will chase their aces to the river and sometimes 3 of them are chasing 1 outers, its hilarious..........

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
King Queen off is your bread and butter moneymaker on monkey low limit tables. The ace anything clowns will chase their aces to the river and sometimes 3 of them are chasing 1 outers, its hilarious..........

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't thought of it that way but I think you've got a point. There are a LOT of bozos who hang on to that Ace until the river.

SpaceAce

[chesspain]

This topic was debated thoroughly a few months ago, and I believe at least one top poster (Ulysses?) essentially said the same--that there is probably little difference in long-term EV between raising, calling and folding.

[el_grande]

I've been folding AJo UTG. I've been calling with KQo in EP.

Guess I should be raising these hands almost all the time against weak opponents.

[JDErickson]

I usually will raise with KQo if I'm first in or after 1 or 2 limpers. If UTG I will raise. After 3 or more limpers I will limp.

I usually fold KQo to a raise before me unless its a maniac and I can isolate him with a 3 bet.

I tend to do the same with AJo but with much worse results. I am experimenting with my AJo play right now.

Jim

[Ed Miller]

I think in the game decsribed by majorking, KQo is basically a trash hand, and you should definitely muck it.

I disagree. I would not muck KQo from UTG in the game I described. It's not a fantastic hand, but when your opponents are terrible, you have to see some flops so they can make their mistakes.

[sthief09]

Thanks for the link Trix.