sets vs. tptk in small stakes

[Sundevils21]

typical party poker lhe .50-1 or 1-2 table with 10 players. Loose passive table, rarely is less than a straight the best hand because 8 usually see the flop, and 4 or 5 stay until the river. My question is this, Is a set( top set even) much different than holding top pair? Especially if there it is only a two suited flop? Usually it becomes clear who is drawing at a flush or straight. So should I play my sets much differently than ak with K 7 3 two suited flop?

[Tosh]

Without meaning to state the ludicrously obvious but, a set beats 2 pair, TPTK does not...

[SpiderMnkE]

plus you have a lot of outs to fill it izzzup

[Sundevils21]

True. Still two pair seems to have a dreadful chance of making it out alive in games where any two suited cards are called all the way to the river and straights are chased like nothing else. What I really meant to ask though is, Is there a significant difference in how they should be played? I know I'm leaving a lot of variables (position, table aggressiveness...) but just in general.

(Maybe this is just my way of steaming after having my last 3 sets, once with aa, being beaten by straights or flushes on the turn or river) For goodness sake why doesn't the board ever pair.... lol

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
So should I play my sets much differently than ak with K 7 3 two suited flop?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. For one thing, I'm capping the turn if it doesn't make a three-flush. AK unimproved shrinks if there's other action on the turn. A set doesn't.

I'm capping the flop with a set or with TPTK in this situation, so no difference there.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
typical party poker lhe .50-1 or 1-2 table with 10 players. Loose passive table, rarely is less than a straight the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute nonsense. Top pair/top kicker holds up very frequently on loose-passive tables.

[HajiShirazu]

Well, even if everybody stays to the showdown (all 10 players), isn't the average winning hand something like trip nines? I know I read this somewhere.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, even if everybody stays to the showdown (all 10 players), isn't the average winning hand something like trip nines? I know I read this somewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

You did read that somewhere. However, if my shaky memory of that is correct, it was a 7-card stud example where everybody gets seven of their own cards and not hold 'em where community cards are used.

[Sundevils21]

In Winning Low Limit Hold'em Lee Jones says something to the effect of pocket aces only holding up 1 out of 3 times against 8 random opponents. ONLY one out of 3, and aa is usually overcards, much better than tptk. So saying tptk USUALLY holds up is wrong. I'm not trying to say that it will not make money, in fact in the long run it is insanly +ev. I'm just saying sit at a party 1-2 table and see how many times you get frustrated by getting top pair beaten, or a set for that matter.

[blackaces13]

You gotta remember that a set has a GOOD chance of tunring into a boat and that will get you much $ on a loose table. Also, how many freak 2-pair do you see take pots in LL? A set is impervious to those.

[blackaces13]

You'd cap the flop with tptk? So if you lead in the SB, were raised and then 3 bet you would cap it? I don't know man, if it was riased by calling stations I'd muck. You're looking at a set here most likely.

[Tosh]

Sounds a bit weak tight.

[Sundevils21]

Well with tptk i'd probably bet the flop and if raised would check and call to river(maybe that's weak). If I had a set I would cap it preflop but still would be worried if 3rd of same suit fell on turn(maybe that's weak too). All in all I guess my question of "do you play a set or tptk differently" was pretty silly. Like I mentioned I've been steamrolled by flushes and straights recently when holding sets. Thanks for the advice all.

I find when I flop a set I start to think "oh no here we go again". I still play them like the best hand and don't back down even in the slightest. I used to be overjoyed when i hit a set, now I fear the nuts. Maybe I need to go to the Psychology Forum.......Nah, I'm afraid of what they'll do to me. lol

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
So saying tptk USUALLY holds up is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then it's a good thing I didn't say that. I said (and I'll put it in bold for you) Top pair/top kicker holds up very frequently on loose-passive tables.

[ QUOTE ]
In Winning Low Limit Hold'em Lee Jones says something to the effect of pocket aces only holding up 1 out of 3 times against 8 random opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you like these kind of #'s, check out this website.

http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying sit at a party 1-2 table and see how many times you get frustrated by getting top pair beaten, or a set for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you exacly how many times I'll get frustrated- zero.

[Sundevils21]

In reference to your numbers,look a little closer before you post something. Your reference says that aa wins against 8 random hands 34.7% of the time or about ONE THIRD OF THE TIME (I'LL PUT IT IN BOLD FOR YOU). As for the never getting frustranted you're either:
a: The first person in the history of the world who can have something happen and not have an unconcious reaction.
b: Never in your life had a bad beat put on you. OR
c: You're lying.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
In reference to your numbers,look a little closer before you post something. Your reference says that aa wins against 8 random hands 34.7% of the time or about ONE THIRD OF THE TIME (I'LL PUT IT IN BOLD FOR YOU).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to look a little closer. I knew that figure long ago.

You seem to be thinking that I'm disputing that figure. There's nothing in any of my posts which suggests that. I stand by my original statment

Top pair/top kicker holds up very frequently on loose-passive tables.

Maybe the third time around you'll comprehend what you're reading.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the never getting frustranted you're either:
a: The first person in the history of the world who can have something happen and not have an unconcious reaction.
b: Never in your life had a bad beat put on you. OR
c: You're lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, all it takes is a good understanding of poker and some basic emotional maturity.

[Sundevils21]

Why put it in your post that stat then? Why post an understood fact? /images/graemlins/confused.gif Emotional maturity is what one would show after the fact of initial dissapointment. Emotional maturity is HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT. If you flop the nuts and someone rivers a better hand it's insane and incorrect to say that INITIALLY there was no dissapointment, what would be your first reaction jubilation? I'm not trying to start a fight, I think about the emotional maturity subject, we agree without noticing it(maybe not) but I think we mean the same thing and are arguing semantics. Sorry if I've been a jerk or rubbed you the wrong way.

[Tosh]

Jeez this thread is becoming a bit of a joke.

How about option d) Dynasty is a good player who knows the game well ??

Don't think this is 1 person you're making this 'point' against. You'll find the majority will agree totally.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Why put it in your post that stat then? Why post an understood fact?

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted the link because I thought you and others who haven't seen the website it would find it interesting. The Jones reference you made only mentioned AA. It didn't include all hands against all # of opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
If you flop the nuts and someone rivers a better hand it's insane and incorrect to say that INITIALLY there was no dissapointment

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen it happen too many times. I've had people drag "my" $1,000 pots by catching a good card on the river and simply moved on to the next hand. I've flopped top set and had people hit runner-runner perfect to make quads. These things should be expected to happen.

Let's say you play basketball. Do you get frustrated every single time you miss a shot? Does a baseball player get frustrated every time he swings at a pitch and misses? I can't imagine they do if they're any good. It's part of they're game and they accept it and move on to the next play.

The only thing that has a significant negative emotional impact on me is when I have a big losing session. When I've lost 30 big bets or more, I'm usually dissapointed. I wouldn't call it frustration since that implies a helpless feeling with it. However, I'm usually feeling that only when I'm not playing since it's easy to turn it off temporarily.

[bisonbison]

Your reference says that aa wins against 8 random hands 34.7% of the time or about ONE THIRD OF THE TIME (I'LL PUT IT IN BOLD FOR YOU).

Yeah, 1/3 of the time. Do you have any idea how poker works? When you put in 1/9th of the money and win 1/3rd of the time, you are making money hand over fist. What do you want, a coupon that says "redeem these aces for 20BB"? It's a game. If you can't deal with aces getting busted, or see why 1/3 of the time is a giant amount of the time, then you should really consider another hobby.

[Sundevils21]

Hopefully this will be the last post in this thread, I can't handle any more of this. One third is a giant and aa will win more than it's fair share as well as tptk as well as a set. Look at the title of the post, read the columns, do I ever say that AA or tptk or a set won't make more then there fair share of money? No, I didn't. Read the title and read the posts. That was funny about the 20bb coupon though. Well enough of this stuipid thread. Also poker is not a hobby for me, it's how I make 1/3 of my income. Let's all get along, sorry for posting what I now see to be an absolutly irrelevent question. You all are right. Hopefully I will be able to add something to further threads. If everyone here objects and wants me to crawl into a hole, then well I'll go post somewhere else. So far every post I've made here has been recieved with anger so maybe I should find somewhere else.

[joker122]

Why would it be nines?

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you play basketball. Do you get frustrated every single time you miss a shot? Does a baseball player get frustrated every time he swings at a pitch and misses? I can't imagine they do if they're any good. It's part of they're game and they accept it and move on to the next play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they don't get frustrated everytime, but what if they missed a game winning shot or struck out in the 9th inning when the game was on the line? I think it is fair to say that in these situations they might be frustrated. This is analogous to poker when you've lost a big pot that you expected to win. Frustration and dissapointment are natural emotions and are nothing to be ashamed of. It's only when these emotions affect your play that they become problematic.

[GuyOnTilt]

You did read that somewhere. However, if my shaky memory of that is correct, it was a 7-card stud example

Your memory's pretty good I guess. Trip 9's is the average winning hand in an 8-handed Stud7 game. In hold'em however, it's less because of the community cards. I don't remember the exact hand, but I'll look it up tomorrow. I'm tired.

GoT