Laying down AA to complete and utter fish

[blackaces13]

2/4 Borgata. Looser and more passive than anything I've ever seen on Party. My read on everyone is the same HUGE FISH, some a bit more agressive than others.

I get dealt AA on the button, it gets called to me with 5 people in and I raise everyone including the BB call. 7 to the flop:

[3-3-8]

Checked to MP player who I have almost never seen fold or bet. A calling-station for the ages (actually once earlier I saw him lead with a nut straight on the river). He bets and the player to my right calls. I raise it, everyone behind me folds and the CS calls without hesitation, he didn't even blink when I raised. The guy to my right calls too. Turn:

K [3-3-8]

The calling station again bets into me without hesitation even after being raised on the flop. Guy to my right folds as do I.

So, I had to muck here right? Granted the pot is big and there is also the outside chance that this guy was "taking shots at me" because I'm the only player at the table who folds a lot. Also, maybe this guy is so dense that he thinks something like A8 is a great hand here, trust me this guy was TERRIBLE. The fact that he was so bad was actually why I ruled out the chance that he was taking shots at me because the concept of betting at a player who folds often is way beyond this guys comprehension. Also with 7 seeing the flop someone was bound to have a 3 and like I said this guy just didn't bet as far as I had seen.

[Alobar]

I dunno if he has the 3. A really really horible player as you describe gets scared when you raise the flop that you have a better 3 (I know I know, your PFR pretty much eliminates that, but hes horrible and cant remember that far back). so unless he has A3 or 38 he is holding something like A8 I would think. Or hell who knows, maybe he has QQ. I usually call someone as horrible as you describe down 1)because god only knows what they have or think they have 2) God only knows what they have or think they have /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I had to muck here right?

[/ QUOTE ]


No.

[bicyclekick]

Depending on my mood I might even pop him back.

At least call him down, please!

[sthief09]

"Yes! I just got a king! I'm gonna bet this [censored]!"

That's what I was figuring he'd be thinking. But if you REALLY believe that he wouldn't bet a king, then you're in trouble. The other possibility is 88 or K3. The best possible board for aces is K22. So why are you running scared from K33? If the guy has top pair of kings, are you absolutely sure he wouldn't be it?

I don't like raising the flop. In this situation, you can't be beat by 2 pair because you have aces-up, any PP is going to call anyway so you can't prevent someone from filling up, and there's no straight or flush on the board. If I'm in this hand, I'm not trying to figure out what they have. I'm trying to figure out how I can jam the pot. I'm thinking my hand is invincible here unless a K slides off on the river.

I honestly think the guy called the flop with overcards, and hit one of them, so he decided to bet out. You have aces. He doesn't know you have aces. He could be thinking you have QQ-TT.

I really think you have got to concentrate on how to jam this pot with as much money as possible. I feel that raising the flop chases people away if they want to draw to overcards. You WANT people chasing you with overcards. They'd need to go runner runner to beat you. If you jam the pot, the small chance that you are against a 3 will not cost you enough to make jamming the pot not worthwhile.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

[HajiShirazu]

I would at least call down, and would raise unless I was up against a HUGE FISH. Since this guy is a huge fish, I'm just calling down. I have been shown some strange hands in this situation.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, I had to muck here right?

[/ QUOTE ]


No.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think the real question is whether to raise him or call it down. I would have a hard time respecting a player as bad as you describe this one to be just because he bet back into me. I think he had K8.

SpaceAce

[chesspain]

I agree with everyone else so far who claims that this is a horrible fold. The pot is already 11BB, and you will get to see a showdown for no more than 2BB. Since after only two months of play you seem to be such an authority on how HUGE FISH play, you should know that bad players fall in love with paired flops like this when they pair the unpaired card, meaning that he could easily have A8/K8.

P.S. Given your whopping two months of playing experience, maybe you should consider toning down your disparaging charcterizations of others' play.

[blackaces13]

Chess,

Obviously we don't seem to be getting along thus far on these boards. And yes you are right that I am a novice. However, I have made it a point to attempt to read the best material and I try to play everyday online even if its only for a little while. I really don't think that I'm being too presumptuous when I'm at a table where UTG routinely flips up 83o and calls 2 bets on the river with bottom pair. And a table where literally 7 or 8 saw every flop and many called to showdowns with 3rd or 4th pair even with 4 to a flush/straight on the board and things of this nature. You're right I'm no expert, but it doesn't take one to lable such players as fish.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
The best possible board for aces is K22.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say its A-K-K

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think the guy called the flop with overcards, and hit one of them, so he decided to bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

He bet the flop. This is what set off the major alarms for me, he NEVER bet his own hand.

[NaobisDad]

I'd say it's A A K then /images/graemlins/grin.gif (but then...you wouldn't make a lot of money from that board, no would you? Would it be the same for A K K?)

Btw. I'd honoustly rather see something like K 7 2 Rainbow

[chesspain]

Blackaces,

I assume that after two months of playing daily and studying that you have become much better than the average player. I further assume that the skill and knowledge you have acquired makes it difficult for you to understand how so many others can play SO BADLY. That is what makes poker great for those of us who have a clue.

However, there is something offputting about a relative newbie speaking with such arrogance about other players as well as in regards to sections in HEFAP about which you have disagreed. I have been playing for nine months, and have increased my bankroll thirty-fold, yet I still am cognizant of how much I don't know. Consequently, I remain humble about my own skills. Indeed, whereas I am occasionally caustic on these boards, it is usually in response to others' arrogant comments, and not in response to simple demonstration of poor play (especially since I am not always positive about what constitutes poor play /images/graemlins/smirk.gif).

In conclusion, you may well become a welcome addition to these boards, assuming that along with the development of your poker knowledge you can develop some restraint and introspection.


chesspain

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
yet I still am cognizant of how much I don't know. Consequently, I remain humble about my own skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say I agree with you bashing the guy since he's clearly trying his best to learn, but I think this is an enormously important statement. I've been playing for about 2 years now, and about 6 months ago I was more confident in my skills than I am now. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know, and admitting your weaknesses to yourself is critical in learning the game.

[sfer]

I'm not going to add anything that hasn't been said except I think everyone has made a terrible fold with Aces at least once. I know I have and now calling down with a healthy pot, any doubt, and an overpair is routine.

My bad Aces fold was face up (to my embarrassment), so I learned two valuable lessons.

[sfer]

MG had a recent post where he made a ton with AA and an AAK board.

[sthief09]

Come on now. Obviously if you flop aces full that's better than just flopping an overpair. I'm talking about the best flop without improving. AA against K33 rainbow is pretty and I'll cap all 3 streets.

[sfer]

I agree completely. Personally, I'd prefer a 2 flush flop because I'm still a favorite and I can be pretty sure someone's chasing me.

It's just sometimes the stars align perfectly. MG had quads, his opponent had Kings full.

[Trix]

How would he play K8 ?

[el_grande]

I understand the logic, and you are behind most of the time.

But, geez, there's 7 people seeing the flop in a raised pot!

You have to call down.

[slogger]

I'd say it's A-A-K

[blackaces13]

Well, you semi beat me to it. I was at work today thinking of how I was gonna reply to what I thought for sure would be another condecending or belittling attack from you. But I didn't get it so my whole peace offering speech I was gonna write is out of place now.

Anyway, I don't want to make enemies on these boards and that seemed the direction that me and you were heading in. I come to this site to learn and personal hostilities have no place here in my opinion as I'm sure you agree. I take responsibilty too as my replies to you were also rude and dissmissive lately.

If I come across as arrogant its only to get responses from which I can learn from. For instance if I make a comment such as, "hey what do you guys think about the HeFAP p.160 thing, maybe its a bit off huh?" Then I may get one person who tries to explain to my why its tue or not a big deal or whatever. Rather than that I try to lay down the gauntlet and let people convice my why I'm wrong which I'm happy to hear if they convice me. The pocket Jacks thread is a perfect example, I was wrong and I learned a lot which is perfect for me. I never really thought they should be checked/called anyway but would I have gotten 40 responses if I said " so you should raise PF with J's right?"

In anycase I'm passing the proverbial peace pipe to you in the hopes that we can put an end to any animosity from this point on. Isn't that beautiful man? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good luck on your tables today,

-BA13

[blackaces13]

I believe check/call.

[blackaces13]

I think you are 100% right. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20 and I STILL am 90% certain this guy had a 3, even now I am. I suppose that makes it a close decision between folding and calling a likely 2 BB's but I guess callers sleep better than folders right?

[blackaces13]

Nah, you cripple the deck there. Imagine the action you'll get from lone kings with A-K-K. There's only 1 hand in the 168 remaining hands that beats you here and its cowboys, barring those you will collect BIG $$$ with a A-K-K flop.

[blackaces13]

The biggest hand I've ever won in my life was when I had pocket Jacks and the flop was [K-K-J]. Sort of similiar to what we're discussing.

At first glance I really didn't like the flop (as chess pointed out I'm new). But then as the action was getting 3-bet to me it slowly sunk in that this was the BEST flop imaginable. As long as no one had KK (and I had put in the last pre-flop raise) then I was golden. The only other hands with a chance would AA or QQ hoping to catch a 23-1 shot on one of the next 2 streets and remember I put in the last riase so I was loving every second of this hand. I believe it was capped on every street as the other 2 kings were both live and in the hands of maniacs. About 65 BB's or so as I recall.

Now imagine if the flop were JJK. I'd have lept out of my seat but deflated when I won a TON less money.

[IlliniRyRy]

blackaces,

I think the consensus here is that your fold with AA might've been a tad too tight, but I have to tell you, I'm with you on this one. Screw pot odds, you made a good read, I've seen that situation over and over again as well. Thankfully, there are tons of passive fish like this guy that don't understand how to re-raise so he just bets out on every street.

[Mike Gallo]

MG had a recent post where he made a ton with AA and an AAK board.

I had AA my opponent had KK.

He check raised me on the flop and went 12 bets with me on the turn. We played heads up in a b and m, no cap.

Only time I ever flopped Quad aces.

[blackaces13]

A-K-K for president my friends!!!

This would be a nice debate for whole new thread...Maybe I'll start one. You better disagree with me too Chess, I'll accept no less at this point.

[blackaces13]

Ty Ill,

You're my first and only supporter, woohoo! At this point I think my fold was wrong, but not VERY wrong. And what's swinging me into the wrong zone is that I would have saved all the time/energy of writting this thread. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mike Gallo]

I think you will do just fine here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I read through the entire post and I have to admit I doubt I would fold. I have made that same read you have made, and still I paid off. People have commented to me what good does reading hands do for me if I cannot utilize them. However heads up I have to see the 3 or the 88. Your opponent most likely did have A3 and you might have had to hit a 45-1 shot. You probably made a good fold. However you will never know and it would have only cost you $4 to find out. I once had AK and I folded on the river to a final board of Q 4 5 9 K. I capped the flop I capped the turn and on the river the player calling all along led out. Player in the middle folded, I also folded. I posted the hand and Clarkmeister responded along the lines of even though I was most likely beat, I will never know. I should have paid the $20 for peace of mind.

Moving on to the subject of the personality clash, do not take or make any of this personal.

You have an honest evaluation of yourself and that will help you more than you will realize. A player who does not admit or recognize mistakes cannot grow. We all grow more from mistakes, thats why growth hurts and we call then "growing pains".

Welcome to the forum.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
If I come across as arrogant its only to get responses from which I can learn from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't let that be your modus operandum /images/graemlins/smirk.gif There are already enough posters on these boards who seem to confuse arrogance with cleverness.




[ QUOTE ]
In anycase I'm passing the proverbial peace pipe to you in the hopes that we can put an end to any animosity from this point on. Isn't that beautiful man? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif






[/ QUOTE ]

[Mike Gallo]

Aces,

I would have called the turn bet, and called the river unless I spiked an Ace. If I spiked an Ace I would raise and reraise until I ran out of money.

You closed action on the button so you do not have to worry about raising behind you. I thought I read a check call response.

[blackaces13]

Thanks for the encouragement. As for the hand you mentioned... I don't know anything of $10-20 but you had to put him on either JT or KQ right? Those are probably the prime suspects but isn't this a perfect bluffing opportunity for the guy? Maybe not into 2 opponents I guess but maybe that makes it look even stronger, this pot is HUGE. I don't know, I guess I should just shut up about this stuff until I'm good enough to realize whether what I'm saying makes sense or not.

PS. Are you or do you know the guy who plays in the Borgata who puts a little metal pyramid thing over his cards? I played against that guy when I FIRST started playing and he told me he wrote stuff on 2+2.com all the time and that I should check it out. Of course I did and since then I've been trying to figure out who that guy was. He said "the button is correct" a lot if that helps.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest hand I've ever won in my life was when I had pocket Jacks and the flop was [K-K-J]. Sort of similiar to what we're discussing.

At first glance I really didn't like the flop (as chess pointed out I'm new). But then as the action was getting 3-bet to me it slowly sunk in that this was the BEST flop imaginable. As long as no one had KK (and I had put in the last pre-flop raise) then I was golden.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't ever look the fact that your behind KJ and if your getting lots of action then the other 2 kings are out there and you have to worry that they might pair their kicker and your Jacks full gets beaten by Kings full.

This happened to me once when I first started playing, I had QQ and the flop was KKQ, I was completely ignorant to the fact I was behind KQ....Once of those lessons you onlyhave to lean once /images/graemlins/smile.gif

On a related funny note, and the boy am I retarded file, one of my very first times to play, I was in a b&M with 77 and the flop was 7 J 2, I was high as a kite until the river was the other J, I was scared that my three 7s were no good cuz now all someone needed was a jack and they had three Jacks, hehe

[Mike Gallo]

PS. Are you or do you know the guy who plays in the Borgata who puts a little metal pyramid thing over his cards? I played against that guy when I FIRST started playing and he told me he wrote stuff on 2+2.com all the time and that I should check it out. Of course I did and since then I've been trying to figure out who that guy was. He said "the button is correct" a lot if that helps.

You have correctly identified me. Nice job young man /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[blackaces13]

You know what, I totally messed that story up. I had kings and the flop was KJJ. Please change every occurence of a "K" to a "J" and vice-versa. Also, the only hand aside from quads with a shot in hell was AA, or running quads to a pocket pair but I was willing to live on the edge and cap it anyway. This still applies to the whole "best flop for AA" though. K33 is an INSANE choice, sorry but I had to say it. Its not even in the top 20.

[blackaces13]

Ha, awesome, somehow I knew it. I'm the guy a few months ago who was to the dealer's left, you were to the dealer's right and I think it was 3/6. I flopped a flush draw and I thought you had a good hand already so when the flush hit the river I looked over at you and said, "sorry, man" or some stupid thing. Then you were like, "just for that I gotta call".

Anyway, then a little later I think you were smoking a cig with a guy at the top of the escalator and you told me I was pretty good for a complete beginner and that this site was good and pokertracker was good and whatever else was good which I probably bought the next day. In anycase, a lot of that conversation made me want to get more seriously into poker and try to become a winner at it and God knows this site was/is CRUCIAL to that. So, thanks.

PS. Were you there last night? I was and I thought maybe you played in the tourny and got bumped early then played 2-4 but I don't actually think that was you and I'm not the type to ask someone crap like that if I'm not positive. I'm gonna be there again from Mar. 18th to the 21st. Maybe I'll run into you again... Although you better hope not. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mike Gallo]

In anycase, a lot of that conversation made me want to get more seriously into poker and try to become a winner at it and God knows this site was/is CRUCIAL to that. So, thanks.

Tell Mason so I can get paid my commission /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I was and I thought maybe you played in the tourny and got bumped early then played 2-4 but I don't actually think that was you and I'm not the type to ask someone crap like that if I'm not positive.

Not me. I played Tuesday. I sit 2-4 on weekends if I have friends around and I want to drink unlimited Coronas or Heineken.

I'm gonna be there again from Mar. 18th to the 21st. Maybe I'll run into you again... Although you better hope not.

I have some friends visiting that weekend, so I will look for you. I have seen you there a few times since I played with you.