QJs in EP

[BottlesOf]

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and is EP1

Hero limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 limps, Button limps, SB limps, BB checks

Flop(8 SB): T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds

Turn(7 BB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB calls

River(12 BB): 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, SB folds, BB raises, BB is, Hero calls, EP2 calls, MP1 folds

[Joe Tall]

Ok, Bottles...wtf is that?? BRING BACK PARIS!!!

I think you can fold this river in a protected pot but with the pot being so big the call is not all the bad.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

Fold?

Joe I think you may have misread the board/my holding.

[Tosh]

Joe he has a straight now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If I recall correctly the raiser was now all-in here if that makes a difference.

[Joe Tall]

I think it's the big scary dude. BRING BACK PARIS!!

I did pop an Oxy tonight, so I'm a little foggy, sorry.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

Opps, I've got to hit the sack.

If the river raiser is all-in he should re-raise the river.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

If the river raiser is all-in he should re-raise the river.

That's what I was getting at with this hand. However, I wanted those two to come bhind me, I feel I may have forced them both out by raising, and I'm not sure I wanted that.

Anyone who's not terrified of Adebisi wanna give it a shot?

[CrackerZack]

I hope you misread the board. The only way I'd fold this is if I had a heart attack at the table and there was a rule vs showing down a hand when you're dead.

The only question is whether or not to reraise. I think you're surely chopping with BB so a call going for overcalls is probably best.

[steveyz]

I would think that the fact that the river raiser is all-in argues for just calling the raise and hope for overcallers. If you have the raiser beat, you won't be getting any more money off him, and you'll only drive out the overcallers who definitely do not have you beat.

This case boils down to whether you think the probablility of the overcallers calling 2 bets is at least half the probability of them calling 1 bet. I really doubt it.

[bernie]

it wouldve crossed my mind.

just a thought.

b

[slavic]

I'm going to agree with bernie here, this flop is crying to be raised. You need to clean up your Q and J outs, and other people drawing to gutshots. You have a lot of this flop, 10 possible overcard and gutshot outs along with a backdoor flush draw.

Now do I normally play QJ in ep, well if the table is this passive preflop yes, otherwise easy muck for me.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to agree with bernie here, this flop is crying to be raised. You need to clean up your Q and J outs, and other people drawing to gutshots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. However, I think it's more effective at a mid-limit table. At a Party 2/4, some of the outs aren't smart enough to be cleaned out, if you know what I mean. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[slavic]

At a Party 2/4, some of the outs aren't smart enough to be cleaned out, if you know what I mean.

There really is no problem in forcing someone to pay a high price to get there. If you make the other players make a bigger mistake this does benefit you, maybe not in this hand but certainly in the future.

[bernie]

they wont put you on a str8 should you hit it. though they may pay off anyways.

b

[JTG51]

I like a flop raise also, bernie.

[BottlesOf]

Seems people want a flop raise. My thinking at the time was more along the lines of, I'm on a draw here, and I want all these people coming in behind me. I wasn't really worried about cleaning up my outs, as I figured I would have heard from AQ, KQ, AJ, pf. although, in retrospect, this may not have been the best choice.

[steveyz]

I think you lose a bit if you don't play QJs in early position in typical tables, not just loose passive tables. (but QJo usually should be mucked unless in CO/Button). I play this every time unless the table is extremely tight aggressive, in which case it's time to leave anyways.

[GuyOnTilt]

I usually muck QJs if I'm being asked to open-limp with it. After a limper or two, I'll usually limp from EP with it, but open-limping is the exception rather than the rule for me against most mixes of players. The more I play, the more of a big fan of position I become.

GoT

[steveyz]

I'd open raise with it if there has been 2 folders in front me in the typical Party 3/6 tables that I play, depending on my reads on the players still left to act.
I think it's just one of those danger hands that you need to be able to let go even if you hit a pair. I think it can be played for a profit at most tables in early position.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you misread the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, I did. My roomate has a broken tooth, so they gave him some 'stuff'. I was looking to slip easliy into the night and the goods had just kicked in when I replied. Shows how the 'fog' can f-up your poker play.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[bernie]

your draw isnt strong enough to let other players in behind you. the benefits of raising far outweigh the play of calling, imo.

if you had, say, just an open ender with no overcards, maybe 1 over card, then keep players in to pay you off.

kind of like if you flop a flush draw with a small flush and the bet come from your right. call. if your flush draw has to major overcards to the board, then strongly consider raising.

b

[Schmed]

I fold on the flop.

Once called, I reraise on the river.

[slavic]

I usually muck QJs if I'm being asked to open-limp with it.

I agree. If I'm being forced to open I really want to open for a raise. If the hand along with my position say I can't open raise I think it's time to muck.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be folding this flop. In fact I like the idea of raising it, if I wasn't half-in-the-bag last night when I fumbled this post, I would have suggested it then.

I think this is one of those slow-building posts that nearly slipped by, but now has a debate building.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually muck QJs if I'm being asked to open-limp with it.

I agree. If I'm being forced to open I really want to open for a raise. If the hand along with my position say I can't open raise I think it's time to muck.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is shortsighted and way too rigid.

[bernie]

[Tosh]

I would hope so.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
You should be folding this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: You should n't be folding this flop.

Results, Bottles?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to keep you waiting that long. This hand didn't make it into my PT database until I d/l the new patch today and re-imported the hand histories.

Anyway,

MHWG.
BB had Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the two pair;
EP2 had 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for a pair of 8's and stellar kicker (What?!?)

[slavic]

This is shortsighted and way too rigid.

It probably is, and I'm not saying I'm an expert at the game(far from it). I'm also am applying a concept that I've started using against trickier opponents versus the passive group listed here.

I, like GOT, have become a big fan of position lately, and were I will play many kinds of hands in late position in EP there are few hands I'm looking to tango with that don't have raising potential. Several hands I could go either way with KQo, AJo, ATs with raise, fold or limp depending on the table but QJs and for that matter QJo I just tend to look at as broadway trash in EP.