Is this an obvious laydown, or do I pay him off????

[novamob]

3/6 wild and loose table full of nits. I make it 2 bets in SB with AcKc. Flop comes A /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Bet flop and get 3 callers. Turn comes 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet. Two guys fold, the other raises. I call. River comes 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif I check. He bets. I call. He turns over 23off. Should I have known to lay down TPTK when he raised the turn, or do I pay him off on the river?

[37offsuit]

You played the hand fine. I would have been more aggressive, personally and on this hand it would have cost me but in the long run, the wackjob 23o hands will lose it back in spades.

[Joe Tall]

I think you played it fine. You should not be folding TPTK on a board like this as the river can easily improve you hand you have 8 outs vs. 23 to improve on the river.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[tripdad]

i only count 6 outs from turn to improve on river. where are the other 2?

you're right though--no folding here

cheers!

[BugsBunny]

You have 2 A's, 3 K's and 3 8's (an 8 gives you A's over 8's). Total = 8 outs

[SpiderMnkE]

If we feel like we need to improve in this situation, do we call the river bet if we don't improve. Because in my experience a turn raise = strength that tptk isn't going to beat.

[BugsBunny]

It really depends on how you read the opponent. If they play str8 up and are unlikely to raise the turn without beating TPTK then a laydown may be in order. If they're tricky, or think that there A4 (or whatever - actually raising with A4 on that board wouldn't have been a bad play - but you get my point) is going to be good "because I have a pair of A's" then you want to call down.

They could also have something like AQ. So when you run into turn raises re-evaluate, but don't be too quick to laydown. Turn checkraises show even more strength (usually) and I'd laydown faster to a c/r then I would to a raise - but it's still player dependent.

[Joe Tall]

Read this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=472363&Forum= micro&Words=quiz&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage= 5&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=472363&Search=true#Pos t472363)

Peace,
Joe Tall

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 wild and loose table full of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? jumbo shrimp?

Check-raise the turn. Don't fold on the river.

[novamob]

If a nit is running me down, I am not comfortable counting a paired board as an out, especially if said nit is on 83, which is quite possible.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
If a nit is running me down, I am not comfortable counting a paired board as an out, especially if said nit is on 83, which is quite possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then the duece will give you the outs vs 2-pair, simple as that.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[CrackerZack]

I think you, and the majority of the poker world have very different definitions of nit. A nit won't play 32, 83, etc. What is a nit to you?

[novamob]

The paired board improves my hand, but possibly also his. It would be nice to assume the paired missed him and helped me, but that would be naive. I would say that I have 6 outs that would make me feel good, and 2 that would make me throw up.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 wild and loose table full of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]


"...you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[CrackerZack]

[novamob]

My definition is anyone who will play a hand without good odds. I have no idea what anyone else's definition is.

[sfer]

I always thought a nit was a rock with bad manners.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
My definition is anyone who will play a hand without good odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a "fish", "loosey-goosey", "maniac", "calling station", "chaser", "idiot", or my favorite:

"OMG U SUK FISH KEEP CHASING AND ILL TAKE ALL UR MONEY!!1"

[bsk1999]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3/6 wild and loose table full of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]


"...you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[/ QUOTE ]

Inconceivable......

[Ed Miller]

The paired board improves my hand, but possibly also his. It would be nice to assume the paired missed him and helped me, but that would be naive. I would say that I have 6 outs that would make me feel good, and 2 that would make me throw up.

So you would check and fold if the board paired?

[Joshua]

You can't lay down AK on a Axxx board unless your opponent is an ABC-player who doesn't raise the turn with less than two pair. But laying down here would be entering into dangerous territory where you'll be an easy target for maniacs like me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[webiggy]

[quote
"...you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I can name that movie in three notes
/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[symak]

I would not consider it an obvious lay down, but rather you should consider the player.
If they are passive and then all of a sudden raised in this place then yes it is obvious.
If they tend to fold on the flop without at least top pair. Then it could be considered.
Also if the game was loose and wild I would be more inclined to get away from the hand. In loose games people will tend to play hands like A8s or even A3s.
At any rate in the right situation I would fold, but not all the time. You don't want others to start taking shot at you.

[bernie]

look at your table description. knowing nothing else, id pay it off easily. and wouldve played it the same way. actually, i may have 3 bet the turn if theyre that loose and wild. i've noticed alot of dips thinking that A crap(non 2 pair) is good here.

since when is a nit a loose wild player?

b

[tpir90036]

that you have 8 outs.... you don't know exactly what all of them are...but they are there....and you aren't going to fold anyway...right?

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
If we feel like we need to improve in this situation, do we call the river bet if we don't improve. Because in my experience a turn raise = strength that tptk isn't going to beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a normal game, that is correct. In a Party low-limit game, you'll see morons raise the turn with 2nd pair.

In a Bellagio 15/30, you MIGHT lay this hand down. In a Party low-limit game full of idiots, no way.

[LetsRock]

I'll call this down. Raise on turn could easily have been a come bet (4 flush). I wouldn't be surprised to be beat, but I'll call this down unless I really know the opponent to be an absolute rock.