Cubs Vs Astros in NL Central

[thomastem]

Astros whine and no matter how many times they petition Bud Sellig the Cubs will win the NL Central this year. Someone pass Bagwell a kleenex.

Why would they name the baseball team after the dog from the Jetsons?

[namknils]

I can't wait for the Cubs to destroy Roger Clemens. He's in for a hurting at Enron Fie...Err...MinuteMaid Park.

[slavic]

you want to put some action on that?

[GuyOnTilt]

Between the 'stros and the Cards, the Cubs are the least deserving team in the NL Central. I will be very disappointed if they win the pennant.

GoT

[Aceshigh7]

I feel the Astros have one of the best pitching staffs ever assembled. They will run away with the NL central this year. The Cubs were a one year fluke, and even then they only won the division by one game. The Astros have something like 4 division titles in the last 8 years. With Clemens and Pettite, we are gonna be a force to be reckoned with in the playoffs. No more first round blowouts.

As Drayton Mclane said, "It's our year."

[J_V]

Yeah, I live next to Wrigley and I bleed Cubbie blue. But, pople picking the Cubs don't know baseball.

[slavic]

As a long time S'tros fan, I have to say that running away with the central is not likely. Beating the cubbies out, should be pretty easy. I'm not sure what the tribune company does each year but the cubbies just have issues.

The Astros look good on the infield, the starting rotation looks good, but we need a center fielder, and the bullpen is always a mystery. I love Biggio, I have ever since he first put on the old rainbow uni's but he just doesn't cover center like he did when he first moved from catcher.

[bugstud]

I'm not sure that picking the Cubs "doesn't know baseball." Are the Astros going to be in it? Of course, but both teams have their own problems to worry about. The Cubs need a 5th starter, have some leadoff and 2nd base issues as far as the lineup goes, plus AGonz (ugh) at short. Patterson needs to be healthy and in his last year form, no small feat. Astros need a healthy Oswalt/pitching staff in general, Biggio to play better than his aging body should and their much weakened bullpen not to blow up. And having been a Cubs fan, the bullpen is so often overlooked it's not even funny. Given that I'm a Cubs fan, I think that having ARam and Lee for the full year are going to be huge differences in the lineup, and Barrett can sorta hit which is more than Damian Miller ever did. Bullpen is better, and if the 5th start/Maddux is resolved and works out, the Cubs can win it. Both teams can win 95-100 games, especially in the Central.

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I live next to Wrigley and I bleed Cubbie blue. But, pople picking the Cubs don't know baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ouch, I think it's obvious you clearly do not bleed Cubbie blue.

As for the Tribune company and the Cubs problems, they have done more this offseason then they have in many years. They've finnaly spent the money to get some more hitting and fielding, and the put another arm in the bullpen (which has been weak, but should be better). I think it's laughable to argue that the Astros have one of the best pitching staffs in the league, especially when your talking about the Cubs/Astros match up. Yes, Houston has won 4 titles (or however many) but they are getting older and older and its the Cubs time now. Biggio, Bagwell, etc. were awesome, but now they are not as feared. It should be a good season.

-nam

[namknils]

[ QUOTE ]
Between the 'stros and the Cards, the Cubs are the least deserving team in the NL Central. I will be very disappointed if they win the pennant.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't know how the Cubs are the least deserving. The Cubs won it last year by playing better down the streach than anyone else. The Cards imploded and then threatened to throw games to Houston so the Cubs wouldn't get in. Now there are rumors that the Cards are trying to get rid of players so they can buy Maddox from the Cubs. I'd say that St. Louis is by far the least deserving.

-nam

[thomastem]

I forgot St. Louis had a team. Cards will be battling the Brewers.

[namknils]

lol, I agree. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CMP]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's laughable to argue that the Astros have one of the best pitching staffs in the league, especially when your talking about the Cubs/Astros match up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a casual baseball fan at best, but I've been listening to ESPN Radio in the car recently, and as a lifelong Cubs fan, it was with mixed feelings that I heard one of ESPN's baseball experts say:

- Best shot at winning one game: take Prior or Wood
- Best top to bottom rotation in the majors? 'Stros

Hopefully, it will be a competitive year -- without the 'Stros whining that "undeserving" talk again -- or was that the Cards, I forget...

CMP

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Hopefully, it will be a competitive year -- without the 'Stros whining that "undeserving" talk again -- or was that the Cards, I forget...

CMP

[/ QUOTE ]

Houston seems to produce whiners. They need a lot of kleenex. Astos are going down. Can the Cards win more than the Devil Rays?

[Cubswin]

Did you all not expect me to chime in on this? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think the big issue for the Cubs is going to be the 5th starter. Let's face it... Ryan Dempster is not the answer. Maddux would be a great addition but i think a left hander is needed badly... im just not sure there is a decent one out there. Consistency out of Zambrano will also be important. When he is on, the Cubs far and away have the best 1-2-3 punch in baseball.

As far as relief pitching goes, the Cubs should be in great shape. The addition of righty LaTroy Hawkins (1.86 ERA) and lefty Kent Merker (1.95 ERA) will compliment the already sound pen. They have just resigned Fransworth and Remlimger will be returning as well. The big question in the pen will be JoBo... will he be able to continue his magic in the closer role? He seemed to tail off toward the end of the season last year but finished with a very impressive 2.63 ERA. Expect the cubs to finish either 1 or 2 in team ERA and lead the league in strike outs for the 3rd straight season.

The Cubs big holes are at catcher, outfield depth and at short. They need someone behind the plate that can hit better then .223. Again, i dont know who is out there but if someone cant be found before the season starts look for the Cubs to pick one up around the trade dealines if they are in it. They also need a solid fourth outfielder because of Alou's injury problems and the uncertainty of Patterson knee. Goodwin did put in a solid effort last season and if he could continue this effort he will fill the void nicely.

As far as the infield i think Cubs will be in good shape. Ramirez will give you some run production at 3rd and Grudz will be solid at 2nd. The addition of Lee at first will be key... his defense will come in handy for all of those throws coming from ramirez /images/graemlins/smile.gif Gonzo....well... he is solid defensively and if we can get a .245 season out of him that will be just fine... as long as he doesnt boot any ground balls at key moments.

I would like the opening day line up looking like this:

Patterson (CF) .298
Grudz (2B) .314
Sosa (RF) .279
Alou(LF) .280
Ramirez (3B) .272
Lee (1B) .271
Gonzo (SS) .228
Bako (C) .229
Prior (P)

There is some talk that Patterson will not be leading off this season but im not sure who else will. The line-up is pretty solid but lacks a left handed bat other then Patterson and Bako. Look for Goodwin or Hollandsworth to get some serious playing time in left field this year when a righty is pitching.

If the Cubs stay healthy this year they will be a serious force. Their pitching will be dominating and the offense should get the job done. I will boldly state that the cubs will again make the playoffs this year... im just not sure if it will be as division winners or as a wild card. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

regards
cubswin

[bugstud]

Dempster had Tommy John, doubt he's even healthy before August. Don't forget the Todd Walker and Michale Barrett signings, I hope Barrett starts over Bako anyway. As far as the 5th starter...I think Cruz can do it, but whether or not he will is another matter entirely.

[namknils]

Great post cubs, now I'm really itching for the season to get started. /images/graemlins/smile.gif When's this snow gonna melt? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[thomastem]

Cubswin,

Didn't the Cubs get Burnitz?....Lefty over 30 Homers last year strong arm can play right or left. They did get Walker and I think he will start at 2nd and add lafty/righty balance to the lineup. Grudz came up as a ss for the Expos he will see some time there.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't forget the Todd Walker and Michale Barrett signings

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost forgot about the Walker signing...theres the other left handed bat i was looking for. I just pulled up some numbers from last year:

Walker
vs LHP .234
vs RHP .301

Grudz
vs LHP .360
vs RHP .302

I guess there will be a bunch of plattoning there /images/graemlins/grin.gif

As far as Barrett... im not too excited. He is a career .253 hitter but when there was a much better option out there to sign its hard to like him (damn you trib). I think your right though, he will most likely start ahead of Bako.

As far as Cruz goes... im up in the air about him. He has shown some great stuff at times and thrown BP at other times. Maddux would be a nice fit with this young staff but id still like a left hander. Shawn Testes....where are you? /images/graemlins/grin.gif ... oh on that note....how much fun will it be to see Testes pitching at coors...lol

regards
cubs

[namknils]

I'm not too disappointed with the Cubs getting Barrett. Obviously Pudge was going for the money (Detroit!?!?) so this way we save some cash to offer Maddox or a midseason pickup of someone else.

As for Cruz, I'm also up in the air. I want to beleive he can do it, but I was at the game vs the lowly Reds last year when he gave up a run an inning before he was pulled. I think he got away lucky only giving up 6 runs. It looked like a little leaguer pitching to a bunch of minor leaguers.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
Grudz came up as a ss for the Expos he will see some time there.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm... im not to sure about that. He did indeed play some SS for the expos but had 59 errors in those two seasons. Not exactly great when compared with the 10 that Gonzo made last year. Maybe they will work on this during spring training.... but i doubt it. In my opin, 20 extra errors a year is not worth the added run support that you would get.

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't the Cubs get Burnitz?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, hes in Colorado.

Are there any available left handed first basemen out there? Gracie would be good but they will never bring him back after his comments last year.

regards
cubs

[bugstud]

Why would you want a lefty first baseman when we ahve Derrek Lee? The only place we can put in a lefty is at catcher or short right now, and those are pretty hard to find. Barrett has huge offensive upside. I think Grudz comes back to Earth this year, Walker should get some ABs against the RHPs.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want a lefty first baseman when we have Derrek Lee?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lee is a solid first basemen but by no means an all-star player. His carrer BA is only .264. Last year he hit .333 against LHPs but only .256 against RHPs.

As the roster stands now there is no back up for Lee and there is lack of quality left handed bats. I think it makes perfect sense to go after a back up left handed 1st basemen. In any case, the cubs will need a back up first baseman so why not kill two birds with one stone.

I guess another way to get a left handed bat into the line up would be to play Goodwin in left when a righty is pitching. Goodwin's BA against RHP is .302 as compared to Alou's .260 and Alou always seems to need those extra days off /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I think Grudz comes back to Earth this year

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a lifetime .285 hitter over 8 seasons. I don't see any major deviation from this number this year.

[ QUOTE ]
Barrett has huge offensive upside

[/ QUOTE ]

As compared to Bako, Giradi and Hundley yes he does. As compared to the other catchers in the league.... no he doesnt /images/graemlins/smile.gif

regards
cubs

[Cubswin]

FYI .... Lee is a righty /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[thomastem]

The cubs have a prospect that came up for a short time last year that can hit but he is learning to be an OF. What was his name and is he a lefty? Dominant righties, which the Astros and Cards have will eat us up if we don't get some lefty lumber.....Goodwin is not an answer.

Also Patterson belongs batting 3rd.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
The cubs have a prospect that came up for a short time last year that can hit but he is learning to be an OF. What was his name and is he a lefty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you thinking of David Kelton? He is a righty. Initially there was a lot of hype about him because they thought he might be able to play 3rd but his defense was not up to it. He will end up being your run of the mill outfielders.

[ QUOTE ]
Dominant righties, which the Astros and Cards have will eat us up if we don't get some lefty lumber

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, very good point

[ QUOTE ]
Goodwin is not an answer

[/ QUOTE ]

No he's not the answer but he is an answer. I like him more then Alou against RHPs. The question is... will they sit the high payroll player? Given Alou's shacky legs and age and also the lack of lefty bats I think Goodwin might see more PT then last year.

[ QUOTE ]
Also Patterson belongs batting 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who leads off then? Grudz... he had like 6 SBs last year but his good OBP might make up for this. Patterson is the logical lead off guy but Dusty is saying he wont lead off cause of the injury (Patterson only started running again last month and i think he might have limited PT until the temps get warmer).

Against a righty i would say sit Alou and start Goodwin in left and lead him off. What do you think about that? Against a lefty... im not sure what to do /images/graemlins/confused.gif Most likely Grudz would get the call in this situation. I still think once healthy Patterson should return to the leadoff role.

regards
cubs

[bugstud]

USing his .264 number isn't the best indicator, he's hit .270 or better the past 4 years, when he's been a full-time MLer. His other numbers compared to last year have him hitting righties much better than last year's numbers would indicate. I think Lee should play 150+ games, that's why I don't want a high-priced 1B only. If they could somehow play center/left as well, then fine.

As far as Grudz, I think him hitting .270 the previous 2 years then hitting .314 last year means he'll be back in the .270-.280 range, which isn't bad but not earthshattering. And as far a Barrett goes, look at his numbers in part time in Montreal. If he goes .260 avg and 15-20hrs, that's pretty good for any catcher not named Lopez, IRod, Piazza or Posada.

[J_V]

I think Woods' is gonna suck this year. Plus, he has a real problem avoiding injury.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cubs have a prospect that came up for a short time last year that can hit but he is learning to be an OF. What was his name and is he a lefty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you thinking of David Kelton? He is a righty. Initially there was a lot of hype about him because they thought he might be able to play 3rd but his defense was not up to it. He will end up being your run of the mill outfielders.

[ QUOTE ]
Dominant righties, which the Astros and Cards have will eat us up if we don't get some lefty lumber

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, very good point

[ QUOTE ]
Goodwin is not an answer

[/ QUOTE ]

No he's not the answer but he is an answer. I like him more then Alou against RHPs. The question is... will they sit the high payroll player? Given Alou's shacky legs and age and also the lack of lefty bats I think Goodwin might see more PT then last year.

[ QUOTE ]
Also Patterson belongs batting 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who leads off then? Grudz... he had like 6 SBs last year but his good OBP might make up for this. Patterson is the logical lead off guy but Dusty is saying he wont lead off cause of the injury (Patterson only started running again last month and i think he might have limited PT until the temps get warmer).

Against a righty i would say sit Alou and start Goodwin in left and lead him off. What do you think about that? Against a lefty... im not sure what to do /images/graemlins/confused.gif Most likely Grudz would get the call in this situation. I still think once healthy Patterson should return to the leadoff role.

regards
cubs


[/ QUOTE ]

Todd Walker doesn't strike out he should lead off against righties. I don't think Grudz will have more glove errors at ss than he does at 2B as for his arm....we got a glove at 1st. Let Grudz bat 2nd and move Walker along. Plus who better than Dusty to get Grudz to take more reps with the glove at SS and get him comfortable. Let Alou start we need Goodwin to pinch hit/run late in close ones.

[thomastem]

I've been reminded that this isn't "other topics" forum and that this forum if for new,views, and gossip pertaining to poker only.

To fix this I change the question to: "Who will win the NL central and on the day it's won which major hold'em tournament will be next to run?" That should satisfy those that are puckered.

[Cubswin]

The Cubs need a left handed bat badly. Two leftys (Patterson and Walker...Bako does not count) will not cut it against a NL central loaded with RHP talent. Additionally, the Cubs need someone to back up at first. Who would assume the role if Lee gets hurt? 1B is the mosts logical and easiest place to add a left handed bat and that is why the cubs will (and im quite confident in saying this) pick up a left handed 1st basemen before the season starts. I think they could do this spending less then 2.5 million. I am also quite confident that Goodwin will start quite a few games in left this year when RHPs take the mound.

With Grudz... anytime you you have a 2nd basemen hitting .270-.280 you are doing all right in my book. I think hitting in front of Sosa really helped his BA last year but even if he leads off i think he'll be around .290

Ill withold judgement on Barratt until i see his numbers come June.

In any case, im looking forward to a great year.

regards
cubs

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Woods' is gonna suck this year. Plus, he has a real problem avoiding injury.

[/ QUOTE ]

What injury has we had since his Tommy Johns? That was over 4 years!!! Last year was his career best year with a 3.20 ERA and 266 Ks. He has gotten better every year since his surgery. Oh yeah.... hes going to suck next year. The bigger injury problems are Alou and Patterson.

[namknils]

I think J_V is actually a Sox fan posing as a Cubs fan who thinks "loves" the cubs but agrees they suck. I didn't understand this Wood statent at all either.

[dandy_don]

National League Central:
1. Houston
2. Chicago
3. St. Louis (a prayer and a wish for at least 3rd)
4. Pittsburgh
5. Cincinnati
6. Milwaukee

[Cubswin]

I think its way too early to make any sort of prediction... the pitchers havnt even reported for camp yet. At least wait til near the end of spring training when we see who is injured and what the opening day rosters might look like.

cubs

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
National League Central:
1. Houston
2. Chicago
3. St. Louis (a prayer and a wish for at least 3rd)
4. Pittsburgh
5. Cincinnati
6. Milwaukee


[/ QUOTE ]

Close but Pittsburgh is worse than Cincy and Cubs beats Astros. Astros will have problems closing and Astros will have problems keeping starters healthy.

[Jim Kuhn]

Who threatened to 'throw games to the Astro's'? I don't recall reading that anywhere. What players are the Cardinal's trying to get rid of so they can get Maddux? The Cardinals do not have enough talent to sell off. They need much more than an aging Maddux to compete with the Cub and Astros! They also do not have room in their proposed budget for Maddux. They have about $7 million wrapped up in Tino Martinez playing for Tampa Bay this year. With luck the Cardinals will be fighting for third place this year.

[Jim Kuhn]

Please send the Cardinals your third middle infielder, fourth outfielder, and sixth starting pitcher. All would be starters in St Louis. How much talent do the Cubs need? I work in St Louis, but live in Illinois and follow the Cubs. Hopefully, this will be a good year for Cubs fans!

[namknils]

Well as I recall, a few weeks after the Cubs won 4 of 5 from the Cards at Wrigley in early Sept. the Cards played Houston. At that time the Cards had no shot at the playoffs and one of their relief pitchers made a comment to a reporter that he would throw games to keep the Cubs from the playoffs. It was a buzz for a while, but it was only the one pitcher, the rest of the team denied they would (and obviously they didn't).

As for the Maddox deal, the Cubs showed the only interest in him for a while, but then all of a sudden a bunch of teams jumped in, including the Cards who basically were only going after him 'cause the Cubs wanted him.

[Cubswin]

[ QUOTE ]
Who threatened to 'throw games to the Astro's'? I don't recall reading that anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

In early September of last year the Cubs took 4 out of 5 from the cards in a series in Chicago. At that point there was still a 3-way race for the division but the cards were fading quickly. Pissed about losing big in this series, Morris made some sort of comment about how if the cards didnt win the Central he wanted anybody but the Cubs to win it (or something like that). About 2 weeks later the Cards played the Stros and got sweeped in a 3 game series in which they were outscored 20-6. Some people thought that the Cards might be throwing it but the fact of the matter was that they still remained in the hunt for the central division title at that point. They were simply washed up and just plain ole outplayed.

regards
cubs

[Cubswin]

When the Cards and Astros played that series the standing were as follows:

Astros 78-68
Cubs 77-69
St Louis 76-72

Entering the series in question, the Cards were only 3 games out with 15 left to play... 6 of these games were against the Astros so they could have made up some serious ground. They were not out of it by any means. However, they proceeded to fug up and lost 3 straight to Houston /images/graemlins/grin.gif If the cards were really looking to wrap things up for the Stros why did they take 2 out of 3 in the series that took place a week after this?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the Maddox deal, the Cubs showed the only interest in him for a while, but then all of a sudden a bunch of teams jumped in, including the Cards who basically were only going after him 'cause the Cubs wanted him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure if the cards were actually interested in Maddux from the get go or not but I think many times teams try to show interest in order to drive up other teams offers to free agents. I dont think this is unethical... why not pretend to be interested to make a division rival up their offer and take on more payroll. That is just good management as far as im concerned.

regards
cubswin

[ThaSaltCracka]

I am entering this late but..... the NL Central will be decided in the North between Chi-town and St. Louie.
Astro fans don't think Clemens is your savior, he is old, and pitched above average in picher friendly NY. Houston will kill him. The lose of Wagner hurts them greatly.
The cubs and Cardinals both have good starting pitching and pretty good lineups.
Honestly the NL central is weak anyways, but I still think the Cubs take it w/ Dusty

[Jim Kuhn]

I think Steve Kline made some controversial remarks. The Cardinals were in the wild card chase I think until the last week. They rolled over and died the last month of the season. Supposedly, Vina told many people he was looking forward to playing for the Cubs 'next year'. Not sure where he thought of that idea.

As for Maddux, the Cardinals would always be interested in him at the right price. I don't forsee him signing a two year deal for six million dollars though. Have you seen their starting rotation. How could you say the Cardinals are just bidding up the Cubs? The Cardinals have two major league quality starters at best, (Matt Morris and Woody Williams), and Woody Williams is about 38 years old. The Cardinal 3, 4, and 5 starters would probably be hard pressed to start for many triple A teams.

How many starting pitchers do the Cubs need? Go Cubbies! I have a couple of Cubs shirts and they will see alot of use this year. Also, I am not a fair weather fan. I have been following the Cubs since Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Don Kessinger, Fergie Jenkins, Tuffy Rhodes. Tuffy Rhodes - wait that is a differnt generation..............

[Jim Kuhn]

I think the Cub's are the team to beat. The Cards have about five of the best players in baseball and most of the rest belong in double A or retirement.

The Astro's are aging fast and Roger may not fare as well in spacious Houston. Bags and Biggio are on the downside of great careers and Dotel is a question mark as 'the closer'.

I think the Cubs will win the central with the Astro's grabbing the wildcard. Both teams have the frontline starting pitching that is so important in post season short series.