When you run bad, you start playing bad, KJo after two limpers

[Guido]

I just moved up to 2/4 at Paradise and had a bad run and started playing even worse. Here's what I mean.

I have KJo in CO-1. UTG and UTG + 1 limp, I limp, CO limps, button raises, blinds and the rest call. Seven to the flop for 14SB.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet out, CO, button and UTG call. Four to the turn for 9BB.

Turn: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet out, CO folds, button raises, UTG folds, I call. Two to the river for 13BB

River: J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, button bets, I raise, button calls.

I think I couldn't have played this had worse. I think I know where I made the mistakes (pre-flop, turn and river) but I would like to know what you think.

Thanks,

Guido

P.S. Normally I only play KJo to steal or after 4+ limpers...

[steveyz]

I think that you can play KJo here after two limpers if you think that the two limpers are weak.
If those limpers are solid players who could be limping with dangerous hands like AJo, then muck it.
But I'd usually raise in this situation to try to buy the button (unless you know CO and/or button to be loose). KJo plays better against fewer opponents anyways and your raise might get you the pot umimproved if neither limper hits the flop.
On the flop, I would try to check-raise the button and perhaps fold to a 3-bet depending on how tricky/maniacally the button is. After the pf raiser smooth calls the flop, I'd be worried about him slowplaying AA/AK/KK and would probably check-call the turn and then bet out on the river.

[Yeknom58]

You noted that you play KJo after 4 limper. In this situation I would almost always fold. If I do play them, I prefer to play hands like KJo, KQo, QJo, JTo with as few people as possible. I'm thinking 2 crappy limpers, I'm on the Button, and the crappy blinds are coming along. When there are like 6-7 people coming along for the ride I almost always toss those offsuit hands.

I think the preflop call was OK as long as the players on this table are your typical crappy online players. If you have some strong people limping before you or some super agressive people behind you, your limp becomes terrible.

Flop: BET
Turn: The button's raise stinks of "I've just picked up a heart draw/straight draw" and I'd think about 3-betting but I probably wouldn't because he might actually have a hand like AK, KK, KQ.
River: This is one of the worst CR's I've ever seen. There is a flush/straight showing and you go for a CR? If your hand is good, I'm pretty sure you're going to miss a value bet on the river because the button will likely check behind. If your hand isn't good you get 3-bet and kinda have to call. I think betting the river would be better. You're little CR plan will probably only work if he has AK, KT, K8, JT. And even then it might not work. I think he probaby had AK.

[Yeknom58]

Why would you CR the button when you're in the CO-1. At the very best you get rid of the CO. If you bet and the button raises you can get rid of all the limpers. Doesn't that sound better?

[Guido]

Hi Yeknom58,

Normally KJo, QJo and JTo are an auto-muck for me. I only raise them sometimes to steal the blinds or with only 1 limper in front of me. I limp when I'm on the button or in CO with 4 limpers in front of me. I play them to make a straight and don't have to much of a problem to dump top pair when necessary.

When there isn't a raise in front of me I always play KQo.

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the worst CR's I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/grin.gif me too, at the time I thought he had AK or KQ. BTW you said that he probably had AK, then I would have won /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

[Guido]

It's already HU on the river...

[steveyz]

[ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif me too, at the time I thought he had AK or KQ. BTW you said that he probably had AK, then I would have won /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Thanks,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking he had a set? KK?

[Yeknom58]

I would put him on a hand like AK or KQ that's why you have to bet the river rather than CR. And if he has a hand that beats you, you're not 3-bet.

[Yeknom58]

He's refering to a flop CR.

[Guido]

I see, I don't understand why I should do check-raise the flop either. Doesn't make sense.

Thanks,

Guido

[Ed Miller]

I think I couldn't have played this had worse.

It's like clockwork. If someone says, "I played this hand terribly," I can never find a problem with it.

In fact, I think you played the hand PERFECTLY after the flop. Only question is whether to raise or limp preflop.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I would try to check-raise the button and perhaps fold to a 3-bet depending on how tricky/maniacally the button is. After the pf raiser smooth calls the flop, I'd be worried about him slowplaying AA/AK/KK and would probably check-call the turn and then bet out on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This must be some really advanced strategy, because I can't even find a little bit of logic in it.

-ropey

[Bob T.]

What do the guys who entered the pot in front of you limp with? If they are fairly loose, this is probably a raise in this position.

I like your flop bet, it puts pressure on the CO, because he might be facing a raise from the button, and there are a lot of raising hands on the button that you are currently ahead of.

I think you have to bet on the turn, and with this board, a semibluff raise by the button is a possibility, ao there is no way I am folding here but the most likely possibility seems like AK.

On the river, I like your checkraise. If he has AK, you just passed him. I think I would lay your hand down to a threebet on this board against a rational opponent.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[BugsBunny]

I think since the limpers came from EP limping is fine here. If the limpers had both come from MP positions then a raise may have been in order (my opinion at least).

[Guido]

Guess I'm not that bad, but since I started at 2/4 I'm trying even harder to get better. 1/2 and lower I beat easyly but now I want a fresh start and I'm posting almost everyhand where I think I could have made a mistake.

Thanks,

Guido

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I think you played the hand PERFECTLY after the flop. Only question is whether to raise or limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising a called pot with a Group 5 hand? I don't know, but it sounds like negative EV to me. As a matter of fact, I frequently muck KJo after many limpers. It's one of the most overrated hands in Holdem.

[Ed Miller]

If you are thinking in terms of it being a "Group 5 hand," you will never be able to conclude correctly if you should raise or call.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are thinking in terms of it being a "Group 5 hand," you will never be able to conclude correctly if you should raise or call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'll just think of it as KJo and throw it in the muck.

[Ed Miller]

Good point. I'll just think of it as KJo and throw it in the muck.

That's probably a little too tight.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
As a matter of fact, I frequently muck KJo after many limpers. It's one of the most overrated hands in Holdem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's like all up on KJo's [censored]? I don't think that anybody likes KJo very much. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's such a cliche to say that KJo is an overrated "trouble hand" that it's actually underrated, sort of like Derek Jeter.

[Ed Miller]

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's such a cliche to say that KJo is an overrated "trouble hand" that it's actually underrated, sort of like Derek Jeter.

If Jeter played for the Tigers or the A's, he wouldn't suck nearly so bad.

[SinCityGuy]

Nate,

I don't claim to be a great player, and I respect the opinion of most of the posters on this forum.

My past experience with KJo (except in steal situations) has revealed that it's not worth much. I've won mostly small pots with it, and lost the larger pots. I might play overly tight with this hand, but it works for me. If other, more talented players make a lot of profit off of it, then they have my sincere admiration.

[Nate tha' Great]

No sweat, dude, I was just being a sarcatic son of a bitch.

I like to get myself involved with lots of marginal hands, which is why I almost always play shorthanded.

[ QUOTE ]
Nate,

I don't claim to be a great player, and I respect the opinion of most of the posters on this forum.

My past experience with KJo (except in steal situations) has revealed that it's not worth much. I've won mostly small pots with it, and lost the larger pots. I might play overly tight with this hand, but it works for me. If other, more talented players make a lot of profit off of it, then they have my sincere admiration.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Ed Miller]

It's a marginal hand for sure, but it's enough to play most unraised pots from mid to late position.

[Bob T.]

If Derek Jeter played for the Tigers, that would make one major league player on their roster. Sorry two, including Pudge. He would probalby be treated like a god.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
If Derek Jeter played for the Tigers, that would make one major league player on their roster. Sorry two, including Pudge. He would probalby be treated like a god.



[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget about Dean Palmer.
































What?

He retired?

[Yeknom58]

How can you really like the CR on the river. I think most of the times he's just missing a value bet. I wouldn't be confident that AK would bet this river.

[Trix]

I would muck preflop unless the two limpers were weak and there was a good chance that the players behind me, including the blinds would fold to a raise.

[Guido]

The button had pocket tens for the turned trips.

Thanks,

Guido