QQ Hand, stack size problem

[NotMitch]

Stars 1 Table SnG. 8 handed, I have T1275 before posting the SB. UTG min raises to T100, folded to me with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I make it T275 to go (too little)?, UTG calls. Flop is 9 high, rainbow with no obvious straight draws. I have T1000, the pot is T600 and UTG has me covered, what is my play and why?

[Stagemusic]

Personally, I am pleased as punch with the flop and I make a pot sized bet. If my opponent comes over the top I am just going to have to go broke here and call. I am only losing at this point to AA or KK or a set that matches anything on the board and I am ahead of any of the Ax Kx hands that might beat me on the turn or river. If he called my earlier raise with a lower pair, good for him. I don't usually look for monsters under the bed.

[NotMitch]

Betting the pot is my default play here, but If I make a pot size bet I'm left with only T400. Now what happens if it is called and an A or K falls on the turn?

Pushing in is only 1.66x the pot but this seems like it will only get called if I am behind. So I don't really think I like either of those options.

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the pot is my default play here, but If I make a pot size bet I'm left with only T400. Now what happens if it is called and an A or K falls on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are pot-committed at that point. If he checks, you push-in. If he bets, you call.


[ QUOTE ]
Pushing in is only 1.66x the pot but this seems like it will only get called if I am behind. So I don't really think I like either of those options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you want to get called? Why not just bet all-in and take it down? If he has you beat you are losing your stack here; I dont think you cant get away from this hand.

[blackaces13]

Here's what I would do, but I'm a begginner and therefore I'm writting this as much, or moreso, to be criticized as I am for a suggestion.

I would take a little time and put in a real weak sized timid bet, maybe a few units more than the minimum. Here I'd want him to put me on AK and play back at me. The reason I want him to play back at me is because at this point I don't think there is anyway you lay down your hand here, you're in a good size pot with an overpair, the fact that he didnt re-raise you tells me he doesn't have Kings or Aces so you have to be ready to defend all-in here. So, you try to bait him and make him pay you more money than if you went all in right away and he folded up his tent(I think checking is out of the question because you CANT give a free card here as your opponent may well have an ace). Hopefully, he makes a medium sized raise and then you push him all in. If he goes all in over the top of you I'd call and hope he had J's T's or maybe even A9 which in a $5 SNG is par for the course, hell he may even be bored and on a pure bluff. If he calls, which is a weak play, you've got to figure him for overcards, probably AK, and you can play the turn accordingly. Blank, push it in on him. If an Ace hits, moderate bet and fold to a big raise. This is the downside of baiting him, he can call and draw out on you.

Someone please tell me where I'm off here, cause I've been losing most of my SNGs.

[t_perkin]

by making a small bet you are allowing him to see the turn cheaply.

If he has paired on the board (maybe 89 or 9T) then he can see the turn cheaply and pick up 2-pair to smash you.
Same goes for a small PP that has not hit trips on the flop - he may see the turn figuring to get paid off big time if/when it hits.

Basically you are giving an "almost free card" - giving him correct odds to chase you down.

In NL this is to be avoided. Better to take the pot there and then. Remember you only need one person to chase once and make it to knock you out. Tournaments are about survival

- big pocket hands generally take smaller pots because you play them aggressively from the start - everyone should have a good idea that you have a big hand and be folding - not drawing out.
Weaker pocket hands are there to make big pots occaisonally - you hit a big hand and you don't worry about someone drawing on you because you should have them drawing dead or nearly dead.

These are of course massive generalisations, but this is the kind of way that things should be going most of the time.

I am no pro either tho....

Tim

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the pot is my default play here, but If I make a pot size bet I'm left with only T400. Now what happens if it is called and an A or K falls on the turn?

Pushing in is only 1.66x the pot but this seems like it will only get called if I am behind. So I don't really think I like either of those options.


[/ QUOTE ]

NM,

I like them both fine. /images/graemlins/grin.gif As I said, I could worry and second guess myself to death with "what ifs". The fact of the matter is you are way more than likely to have the best hand right now and probably by a large margin. There is a lot of material out there that discusses situations like this. One of the best and I don't remember exactly who wrote it talks about making your opponent PAY through the nose for a draw against your made hand. If they are holding Ax or Kx which is the most likely combination, I am betting strong and am going to make them pay to beat me. If they do, wonderful for them. There's another SNG coming down the road. My money goes in against their likely 2 or 3 outer. The reason I am not all in at this point is that a pot sized bet is sufficient to give anyone pause at drawing to the skinny outer yet still gives me a chip and a chair if the turn is ugly (A or K).

[Vince Lepore]

Move in! You figure to have the best hand. You want the UTG to 1) Fold a hand like A,K 2) Make as big a mistake as possible by calling with a worse hand like a smaller pair or A,K. If he has Aces or Kings you are going broke anyway unless you spike a Queen. Waiting for the turn is a mistake because you allow him a free card that might beat you. At this point where the blinds are so small if you win it right there 1600 is a good stack to have. I don't believe that you have a choice.

Vince

[Al_Capone_Junior]

With 600 in the pot and you having 1000 left, push it in. What other choices did you really consider? There's enough in the pot that you want to win it right now.

I might have popped it more preflop tho.

al

[NotMitch]

I really don't like how I played this, but it worked out. I bet T300 on the turn, UTG called. Turn was a J, I pushed for T700 and he folded.

I think Al hit the nail on the head, if I raised a little more preflop I think I have an easier all in on the flop. I didn't feel totally comfortable with the flop overbet at the time, but the more I think about it that has to be the right move.

One more question, if your opponent is has been very agressive do you ever try for a check raise all in here? I think the drawbacks are if he bets the pot, he is clealy going to call the exrta T400 you can raise, and if he checks you just gave him a free card. Looks like you would need an opponent who would make less than a potsized bet pretty often, and that doesn't seem likely.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

checking and having him check behind, and catch a card to beat you, is catastrophic. That's why I usually don't check here. Even if I was 75% sure he'd bet no matter what he had, I'd still bet anyway.

al

[triplc]

Actually, NotMitch (and I will probably get blasted for this one, but I'll try to defend myself), I don't think you played it that badly. Here's why...

With a T300 bet, you are giving your opponent 3-to-1 odds to see the next card if you have him beaten. Even if he has an inside straight draw, those 8 outs only give him about 5-to-1 to hit on the turn. The big scare is a hand like AK, which is close to 7-to-1. With your T300 bet, you have forced him into a mistake, and protected your stack as well.

If he has you beaten, then you're still kicking, and you will at least have the option of getting away from the hand.

Not saying that's how I'd necessarily play it, but I think there's a semi-reasonable argument for playing it the way you did.

OK...blast away.

CCC

[NotMitch]

Well even if I'm given the chance I don't think I'm getting away from the hand. If after my bet of T300 I get raised all in I'm going to call.

[FR_Mainiac]

With it being that early in the tourney, the last thing I would do is to get all in before I had to.

Preflop - maybe a tad light on the bet. But without knowing this player I would want my bet to fold the BB as I would assume that a UTG bringing it in for a raise will call just about any bet I made.

Flop - As NotMitch said and I agree, a T300 bet makes any call that doesn't beat you but can draw out a mistake. Also if he comes over the top it is an easy hand to let go with T700 remaining.

Turn - I think the push in at this point is fine as you appear to be ahead and you have to put him on a decision for most of his chips. If an A or K came on the turn you can still get out of this hand with a decent stack.

I am sure this will be viewed as a weak play by this crowd....but it is a different way to play it in that situation.