Heated Discussion

[RollaJ]

If you never call a raise with 4-6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in online NL, you are playing too tight.

[Paul2432]

I agree, but only becaue you said "never" and not "very rarely".

For example, if I hold 6h 4h in the BB and UTG makes a minimum raise and four or five players call, I will call.

Paul

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, if I hold 6h 4h in the BB and UTG makes a minimum raise and four or five players call, I will call.


[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like limit poker rationale, do you differentiate btwn hands you'll call with in no limit vs. limit.

[EVIL]

I basically agree with that statement since sometimes your stack and one other stack involved (e.g. the raiser's) will be over 20x what the raise amount is, in which case you should make such a call occasionally because you have the possibility of a sufficiently large payoff, with good postflop play, to warrant the call, and also so nobody can ever say stuff like "he never calls a preflop raise with low suited 1-gaps."

[TheGrifter]

If you're playing 5/10 NL I completely agree. If you're playing 1/2 NL I disagree. There are some levels where the best opportunity for profit is to simply wait for a big hand and punish your opponents mistakes (Which they make every time they get in a pot).

[X-Calibre]

I think the Huckseed theory of calling raises with this kind of hand is based on your ability to make remarkable reads on your opponent. This seems inherently more difficult in online games vs. live, but if you got that kind of game then more power to you.

[fsuplayer]

I love these type hands, maybe too much! With position and more than me and the raiser in the pot, I almost always call with similar hands. I draw the line however with suited one gaps.
I would rather call a raise with these cards than with AQs or KQs bc like low pocket pairs, if you dont flop a great hand just toss it.
Yesterday I called a $2 raise on a Party $50 table in position with 46c and flop a inside straight flush draw
Flop: 3c 7c Ad
Raiser bet out $5, I called and hit the picture perfect 5d on the turn and took big slick's whole stack (over $60 total).
Even better is the look on their face at the showdown!
Well, I assume its priceless anyways. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Anyways they are fun hands to play in moderation.
FSUPlayer

[TheGrifter]

I don't know anything about Huckseed but if I do occasionally call a raise with this kind of hand online it isn't because I think I'm in the lead. It's because the following conditions apply:

1. The money is very deep compared to the raise.

2. The players are sophisticated enough so that mixing up play is required.

3. I feel that if the flop comes to my advantage then I may be able to get paid off big. (ie. if my opponent has AA and the flop is 8-7-5).

[limon]

where is this huck seed theory posted? huck is a good player but it sounds like doyles theory to me. and whos talking about calling with this hand, didnt the post say raising? and yes you should be raising with this hand in certain situations but then again yu should be raising with 94o in certain situations.

[turnipmonster]

to me this is a question of stack size. the problem is in these max buyin NL games, the money is rarely deep enough to make this a profitable call.

in a very deep PL NL game, I think calling raises with a hand like this is fine. the problem is that it's rare for you and your opponent to be deep enough online to make this a worthwhile venture.

also, you have to ask yourself if the raiser is going to pay you off if you hit. not everyone is going to put their whole stack in with top pair if they hit and you happen to suck out.

--turnipmonster

[RollaJ]

I personally like these hands as they vary your play a lot and nobody can put you on a hand, I would never call against someone who has $15 left, but at a $.50-$1 game if we both have $80 plus and he makes it $3-4 to go I very well may call.

As was posted earlier the most important thing is being able to get away from it if you hit a pair on the flop, and are still behind, and being able to read, and outplay the opponent.

[TheGrifter]

Nope. Post said calling a raise. not raising.

[JKratzer]

First, I agree with the general consensus posted thus far. In the spirit of deep stacks, good reads, etc. that make this call occasionally correct in NL, what hands do you fold given these same good conditions? Is calling a raise with 27o ever correct? If not, where do you draw the line? If so, what conditions must be met?

[tewall]

Calling with 72o could be correct in the right scenario. E.g. You're on the button, it gets folded to CO, who you expect is on a steal. You call and expect to pick it up with a bet on the flop enough of the time to make it profitable to call pre-flop.

[RollaJ]

If I am going to make a "loose" call it will be with a hand that can possibly make the nuts, not a hand that at best can make a weak 2 pair or weak trips. A hand like 64 as weak as it looks can take down a huge pot, and when making 2 pair, though not solid, will also usually win. The reason for playing 6-4 s is that there are many potential ways to win (str8, flush, 2 pair, trips...etc) of course another big plus to playing hands like this is if you have good reading abilities in NL, you can "buy" the pot even when you miss (of course at that point it doesnt matter what 2 cards you have)

[limon]

well then, that's too elementary to even respond to.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

And if you give any credence at all to super/system, you'll see that doyle agrees too. I will call a small preflop raise with that hand in a ring game, especially if I am reasonably sure I can bust the guy if I hit, it's multiway, or the stacks are real deep.

In tourneys I generally do NOT call ANY raises with such hands.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

after all the debate between myself and your "fan club" on the NVG forum, these two posts of yours, particularly this one, sure don't raise your stature in my mind as one of the best posters on this forum.

really limey boy, these topics ARE worth discussing, even if you feel it is beneath you to bother with these low limit ****s.

al

[limon]

this topic was discussed ad nauseummin the 70's by doyle brunson. why should i repost good information that is already published?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

My bad. Obviously since Doyle discussed it in the 70s it's unworthy of discussing in the 2000s. And every single person who reads / posts on these forums is obviously bored with such discussions since it's been ad nauseum in their minds since 1970.

al

[tewall]

"If you never call a raise with 4-6 in online NL, you are playing too tight."

Has does what Doyle Brunson wrote relate to this?

[gavrilo]

Yes I agree, I recently limped and called a raise with 67s, took queens down with flopped trips, doubled up.

[spacemonkey]

Well, it's funny you mention it, cos I just raised with exactly the same hand in a shorthanded (almost everyone has been disconnected) 2/4 NL game online. Hit my flush draw, he hit his set and I lost $230. Makes for good advertising!

My favourite suited one gap connector has to be 10-8 though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theBruiser500]

I hear that Huckseed is a great NL player with a loose agressive style (which is how I like to play). I'd be very interested to hear anything about his philosophy on how to play. Al and Limon, are you saying there is already a thread somewhere aroudn which discusses this?

danny

[Dov]

I'll sometimes make this call with hands that can flop a good concealed 'double belly buster'. (Thanks Doyle)

In the last week alone, I have busted over 25 people with these hands. They are rapidly becoming my new favorite. The interesting thing about them is that you can take any cards up to a 5 gap. (like Q6)

Depending on the gap, they are more playable or less playable.

[1800GAMBLER]

Calling these raises in typical online poker will make you soon broke.

Nor should this hand be used as an example if you are playing too tight.

[RollaJ]

I almost agree:
<font color="red"> If you play poorly post flop, </font> "Calling these raises in typical online poker will make you soon broke. ".

"Nor should this hand be used as an example if you are playing too tight." <font color="red"> .... It seems to be more of an indicator of whether you fully understand the differences between limit poker and no limit poker, and the diffence the implied odds of someones whole stack makes </font>

JMHO of course

[JKratzer]

Do you really play hands with a five gap (Q6) to try to draw to a double belly buster? One of your straight draws is usually pretty worthless, as far as I'm concerned. With Q6, flop 8,9,10. Technically double belly, but cmon, are you gonna bet/call any sizable bet when a seven hits? I like your thoughts, but I just think a 5 gap is too big to make it worthwhile. Or maybe I misunderstood your comment - in which case please clarify for me.

Thanks

[tewall]

You need to be in a game with deep stacks to play this way. Either that or in a game where you can run over people.

[tewall]

This would be a bad play for a couple of reasons (at least). First of all, you want both of your cards working in a straight draw, and secondly you want to be drawing for the nut straight. A 6-gapper(!) fails on both counts.

[1800GAMBLER]

Hey.

The reason calling these in internet poker will make you broke is that:

1. The huge different in stack size compared to Doyles game.

2. People buying in even less.

3. Shorthanded action on the flop after a bet.

4. Ability to pot bet.

5. How they fear the flush on the river so much.


Even in his game it's rare that the perfect situation of:

1. EP raises (big hand).

2. 2+ coldcallers inbetween.

3. Hero on the button with x,xs.

4. Deep stack sizes.

5. The coldcallers being loose enough to call with many hands on the flop/the UTG raiser being weak enough to be able to get pushed off his hand/UTG being loose enough to pay off on the river with a single overpair.

... will occur.

Implied odds on suited connectors in NL is thrown around way too much. Him having a big stack gives him at least 2 streets, at most 3, to use it to totally cut your implied odds.

Make this hand 22, where they have 1 street to cut the implied odds then it's intersting.

Want to PM me with the filenames of the movies your images are from? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Ulysses]

[RollaJ]

I agree that you dont call raises often with these hands, and I am talking about calling a 3-6% of a stack raise, not a 10% raise. Furthermore I think it comes down to playing the player/situation in deciding when to call with these hands. Many times when I win with hands like this it is from outplaying people rather than by having the best hand. I think it goes to what tewall said about being in a game you can control (run people over).

[tpir90036]

agreed. i was -8 years old in 1970 and i have only been playing no-limit for around 8 months. discussions like these are always relevant, even if it seems elementary.

a math professor i had once told me that you never fully understand a concept until you can explain it to someone else and have them understand. and even then, everytime you teach someone new you learn a little something extra since they will ask you a question you have never heard before.

-tpir

[novamob]

Please call my raises with 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Pretty please. Nit.

[TwoNiner]

Please bet the hell out of your kings when the flop comes 4-6-10. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think this is a simple call to make as long as the stacks are deep enough since you know when you are ahead. having position helps so you know your opponent will bet out again on the turn and you can raise to make sure his whole stack will be in play. All this is usually of little use at the party poker 50bb "No-limit" tables though