Who do min-raises have bad reps?

[Redhot_man]

i notice that alot of you view min raises as "wimpy" and what not. This may be true if you are raising the min with premium hands, but I dont see any problem with throwing a fair share of min raises to throw oponents off guard. I love to mix it up, raise the minimum with JTs from MP. 44 UTG. ATs from LP.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Min raises preflop are for people with no balls and no real understanding of how to play no limit hold'em. That's been my position for a long time, and I have been quite vocal about it, despite having some critics on the subject. This might change some near the end of a tourney when it's down to two or three tho. It also does not count bets after the flop for the most part.

al

[Redhot_man]

[ QUOTE ]
Min raises preflop are for people with no balls and no real understanding of how to play no limit hold'em. That's been my position for a long time, and I have been quite vocal about it, despite having some critics on the subject. This might change some near the end of a tourney when it's down to two or three tho. It also does not count bets after the flop for the most part.

al

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please go into more detail on why you feel this way?

If I min raise 66 from LP after 3 limpers "I have no balls and no understanding of the game?
No. I am not min-raising because I lack the guts to mae a larger raise, it is because I dont want to turnt his hand heads-up or SH. It is more profitable in a multiway pot, and is even more profitable in a large multiway pot.

Remember Sklansky- You want to occasionally manipulate the pot size to your advantage.

[bugstud]

In NL, you're looking to break someone for their stack. A min raise will often get a huge raise overtop it, and you can't call it, especially on party, with 66. Just limp and quit trying to do limit raises in NL.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If I min raise 66 from LP after 3 limpers
...
Remember Sklansky- You want to occasionally manipulate the pot size to your advantage.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate on how this helps out w/ your 66, especially in short stack min buy-in online games.

[fsuplayer]

There are two reasons i dont min raise.
First, if you have a good, but not great hand (ie. J10s or 44 or KQs) I personally dont want to let people know that I like my hand "a little". I would rather limp in under the radar, and then pounce when I hit my two pair, flush, straight, etc.

The second and more important reason I dont min. raise is that Hold 'Em is a game with too many different flop/board combinations to "raise it up just a little for when I hit a good flop". I think you are throwing your money away if you are attempting to do that.
Those are just my ideas though, let me know what you think.
Fsuplayer

[Acesover8s]

Me, I love min-raisers. Especially those who do it with any hand they play. That way I can limp in with my big hands, and reraise the field after they've built me a pot.

[Redhot_man]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two reasons i dont min raise.
First, if you have a good, but not great hand (ie. J10s or 44 or KQs) I personally dont want to let people know that I like my hand "a little". I would rather limp in under the radar, and then pounce when I hit my two pair, flush, straight, etc.

The second and more important reason I dont min. raise is that Hold 'Em is a game with too many different flop/board combinations to "raise it up just a little for when I hit a good flop". I think you are throwing your money away if you are attempting to do that.
Those are just my ideas though, let me know what you think.
Fsuplayer

[/ QUOTE ]
Heres the thing though, as long as you are not reraised and forced to fold your hand, you are not losing anything by putting a minimum raise. I also feel that its easier to get paid off when the pot is bigger. For instance, using the eariler example, lets say someone that limped had AQ, when you had 66.
The Flop comes Qh 6s 7s and there is $24 in it.
They will normally bet for atleast $20 and then anyone with a draw gets trapped in the middle when I go all-in.

Remember, we are talking Party fish here. When I play NL I like to have fun. I life to throw in different plays, ect.
i feel like I can out play 95% of the players there post-flop.

[spacemonkey]

Youd don't need to build a pot in no limit. A min preflop raise works better in pot limit.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I also feel that its easier to get paid off when the pot is bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

The stacks are usually so small that this is rarely necessary in the no-limit game. Pot-limit might be a different story, but maybe not; I have very little experience there, but I suspect it's unnecessary there as well since people seem to actually bet the pot there much more than they bet the pot in the NL game, where underbets are far more common.

Anyway, to reiterate my main point, for the most part the stacks are so small in these games that min-raising for this reason is likely going to be -EV. You'll just be unnecessarily throwing away extra money pre-flop w/ hands you'll just muck on the flop.

I play in a a couple of small blind games (1-2-2 and 5-5) where at times multiple players have $2500+ (or much more) stacks. When that happens, players will often open for $40 or so w/ any two and get multiple callers so there's $200 in the pot pre-flop. That makes sense because otherwise it's much tougher to get someone's $2500 stack in the middle. But in a 2-4 blinds game where most stacks are $200-400, you don't normally need to artificially build the pot pre-flop to get someone's whole stack. I routinely bust people for more than $200 in that game limping in preflop w/ a small pair and flopping set v. TPTK.

[crockpot]

the only reason to min-raise preflop is if you feel it will make your opponents play significantly worse postflop.

remember, in exchange for making your opponents play worse later on, you're making your pot odds worse, driving out players with hands that play better multiway, and re-opening the betting to a possible reraise that will force you to fold. also, observant opponents will be able to put you on a range of hands when you raise min, unless you also sometimes do it with junk or a big hand, both plays that hurt your overall EV.

[crockpot]

the only reason to min-raise preflop is if you feel it will make your opponents play significantly worse postflop.

remember, in exchange for making your opponents play worse later on, you're making your pot odds worse, driving out players with hands that play better multiway, and re-opening the betting to a possible reraise that will force you to fold. also, observant opponents will be able to put you on a range of hands when you raise min, unless you also sometimes do it with junk or a big hand, both plays that hurt your overall EV.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Even if getting slight the best of it, I can probably count the instances on one hand, in both limit and no limit, when I have raised preflop with a small pair. It's a high variance play, and tho variance doesn't scare me, I generally don't purposely jack it up for no reason, even if I might make a few pennies on the hand by doing so.

But a min raise doesn't effectively do much except jack up the pot. It won't scare anyone out. It won't define your hand or limit the definitions of the hands of your callers. It just doesn't do sh*t except pointlessly jack up the pot. I don't put a whole lot of credence in the "make the pot bigger to tie on your opponents" theory, tho I suppose in very limited circumstances it might be useful.

As a general rule tho, my stated position on min raises stands. It's just like saying "Hi! Ima Moron! I like high variance!" Like I have said before, "you gotta have the huevos if you want the rancheros sauce."

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
First, if you have a good, but not great hand (ie. J10s or 44 or KQs) I personally dont want to let people know that I like my hand "a little". I would rather limp in under the radar, and then pounce when I hit my two pair, flush, straight, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Maybe you need some rancheros sauce.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I play in a a couple of small blind games (1-2-2 and 5-5) where at times multiple players have $2500+ (or much more) stacks. When that happens, players will often open for $40 or so w/ any two and get multiple callers so there's $200 in the pot pre-flop. That makes sense because otherwise it's much tougher to get someone's $2500 stack in the middle. But in a 2-4 blinds game where most stacks are $200-400, you don't normally need to artificially build the pot pre-flop to get someone's whole stack. I routinely bust people for more than $200 in that game limping in preflop w/ a small pair and flopping set v. TPTK.


[/ QUOTE ]

hellew!

al

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
I play in a a couple of small blind games (1-2-2 and 5-5)

[/ QUOTE ]

you bay area people and your "small blind" games. 1-1-2, indeed.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play in a a couple of small blind games (1-2-2 and 5-5)

[/ QUOTE ]

you bay area people and your "small blind" games. 1-1-2, indeed.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I might play in the 10-10-20 Friday if Mr. Zee is playing and consider $1k or $2k as tuition. But the games I normally play in really are 1-2-2 and 5-5.

[muzungu]

I don't do this very often, but min-bets/min-raises might be a tactic to consider when you've got a big hand in EP and you want to elicit a raise from an agressive LP player. Its a cheesy tactic, but since min-bets are so commonly used by weak players with weak/drawing hands, some players will be more inclined to put in raises with mediocre hands against them. I know I've done it, on hands where I had nothing and was planning to have nothing more to do with the hand had they simply checked. And, yes, often they fold.

So, if you spot someone who plays like that it can be to your advantage... maybe you min-bet the flop, they raise, you call, and they put you on a draw. The turn comes a blank, you check, they bet, and you've got their $.

Hmmm- just caught a $200 river 2-outer... I play real good. So maybe you shouldn't listen to a word I say... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm- just caught a $200 river 2-outer... I play real good. So maybe you shouldn't listen to a word I say...

[/ QUOTE ]

And they say you're a rock. . . /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[muzungu]

little do they know my secret weapon: that I occasionally liven up my dull, unimaginative play with unsound, fishy play.

[_And1_]

dont follow the math on that 24 dollar pot, do the other ppl miniraise you to with Aq and so on to build on up or what kind of game is that? NL 2-4 ?

[RollaJ]

I almost never raise minimum in NL as it doesnt help me win at all, it only makes it more expensive for me to try to buy a pot post flop. If I raise, I raise 75% pot or more the majority of the time whether I have a hand or not

[TylerD]

Anybody agree that min-raises are a good thing pre-flop in late position, in PL08? The way I figure is after limpers a min raise builds the pot preflop and means more people chase the low with A3,or 2,3 as the pot is bigger.

[tewall]

If you're playing shorthanded, or the play gets this way after the flop, min-raises/bets can be useful against a given opponent. For example, said opponent may fold too often, or may react too aggressively/predictably.

[theBruiser500]

I agree with what Tewall says. In shorthnaded play sometimes I'll find a weak player and I can minraise it often and he'll call and almost always fold on the flop. An easy way to extract an extra bet from him... I find that in shorthanded a small raise is sometimes a good way to maintain the initiative cheaply.

danny

[jomatty]

in pot limit there may be a reason to make them but in no limit i never want to take a chance on getting blown off a hand i couldnt consider calling but that could win a huge pot and make a big hand. youre example of jTs is perfect example of a hand where the upside seems small and getting pushed out of a pot could cost you the chance to hit a flop and win a big pot.
gl
matty

[spacemonkey]

One nice thing I sometimes find with min preflop raises in late position is that on a very passive table people will often check round to you, you check and buy a free card if you haven't hit anything. So if you always do that with small-medium pocket pairs, it gives you 4 shots at hitting your set. A bit cheap and probably not of much value, i know, but still something to consider.

[tewall]

Excellent points.