Was my fold correct?

[Kluddeludde]

Party poker 2/4, I get dealt 8c 8s in middle position. To my right is a loose, passive fish and the button is a pretty solid player, perhaps a bit aggressive. The last twenty hands or so I've been dealt great hands and the flop seems to hit me every time, so I too, am perhaps perceived as very aggressive at the table.

Anyway, I'm the first one in and call. Loose guy calls, and the button raises. We both call. The flop is

2h 6c 8d

I bet out, loose guy calls, button raises, I 3-bet, loose guy calls and the button caps it. We both call. The turn is the 9h.

I bet out, now the loose guy raises me! Button folds, I call. The river is the 3d.

I check, loose guy bets. I think and then fold.

Was my fold correct here? Hell, what more did I do wrong? Help is much appreciated.

Kluddeludde

[symphonic]

I don't think it was correct. You should've raised him on the river, it's highly doubtful he had anything that could've beat trip 8's.

[onegymrat]

Hi Klud,

I don't like the fold. You would have to put villain on exactly 9-9 to fold here. Being that he is loose, he could have a wide range of hands. You can beat everything else. 9-8 is highly more likely. A better play would have been to reraise the turn, and lead out on the river.

[BottlesOf]

I think this fold is TERRIBLE. I don't mean to be harsh, I'm just trying to emphasize the size of the mistake. Your chances of winning this pot would have been over 90%, and you were risking a comparitively small amount of additional money by sticking around. By folding, you are guaranteed to win nothing.

His pre-flop and continued aggression does not suggest 99 at all, it points to a high pocket pair. His play on the turn points to Aces or Kings.

There is no flush draw, no paired board, and an incredibly unlikely straight draw.

I would've three-bet the turn--and even if capped, I think I'm still betting the river. No way I'm folding

Did you consider open-raising with your 8's?

[chesspain]

As everyone has said, your river fold was horrible. You definately need to read the following thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=462860&page=&view=&sb =5&o=

[Kluddeludde]

The pre-flop aggressor folded on the turn, when the caller (loose guy) raised me. I figured since he had called four bets, there is no way he could have anything else but a straight or, possibly, 99. Had the pre-flop aggressor raised me, I, of course, would have reraised him, and then bet out on the flop even if the turn had been capped.

And, yes, I considered open-raising...

[Kluddeludde]

Actually, I put him on 5-7, considering that he called four bets on the flop, when the pre-flop aggressor and I kept re-raising each other, and then raised me, when I led out on the turn.

[bunky9590]

Was your fold correct? In a word, NO!

The only way I stop the raising war there is when you pry the mouse out of my cold dead fingers.

[Kluddeludde]

As I said, I limped with 8s 8c. Loose, passive guy limps behind me. This could mean basically anything. Solid player then raises on the button. This is probably two high cards or a high pocket. The flop is then

2h 6c 8d

I bet out. Loose guy calls. Could again mean anything, but probably a pair, a draw or two overcards. Solid player then raises me. This could also mean much, two overcards or a big pair. Then I re-raise. Loose guy now calls again. This limits his hands a great deal. An open-ended straight draw, top pair or overpair is the most likely hands. The solid player now re-raises, which marks him with an overpair, most likely kings or aces. The turn is then the 9h.

I again bet out, and this time the loose guy raises me. Remember, this is a loose, passive guy and would never raise with a draw and very seldom with even top pair, but he likes to call alot. This tells me that he has a monster, most likely a straight, or possibly a set of nines.

However, now in retrospect, I figured he could have slowplayed his set of 2's or 5's on the flop, but other than those, I can't see any hands I can beat.

Kluddeludde

[bigjay]

I think the problem is there's 13 BB in the pot and you have a good hand... not the nuts but good. It's one more bet to stay in. I call every time. Even if this guy is as loose passive as you say, he could still have two pair, a lower set or big pocket pair and be betting like this. Read the thread recommended above, it's made a definate difference in my game.

[Nate tha' Great]

That's the worst fold since the '78 Red Sox.

[onegymrat]

You have a good point. I guess it was just so inconceivable in my mind that anyone would limp with 7-5, even 10-7 for some freaks. Although you have the odds to call and fill up on the river.

[Ed Miller]

In limit hold 'em, you just need to put the money in. Making "smart" folds like this will relieve you of your bankroll with blinding speed.

I am not sure I have ever folded a set on the river for one bet. Folding would not have even occured to me here, it's that obviously incorrect.

[CrackerZack]

I'd never make this fold.

PF, raise first in from MP with this hand. You're good enough to open-raise and limping isn't likely to get you set value.

On the flop I like the bet/3-bet if you know cutoff isn't folding. I'd likely 3-bet the turn also, if it gets capped, check-call the river unless you fill up, then check-raise the river.

This pot is huge and you have a big hand. Making big folds on the river is generally wrong unless you're 100% certain you're beat.

[bernie]

no way in hell im folding this. couldnt he have a smaller set and waited for the turn to come alive? could he have 45s or 75s? pkt 9s and spike the turn? he's passive, so he very likely has a hand, but you could easily have better. he may not be putting you on a set since you only called the turn raise.

id call out of curiousity. im not totally convinced im beat yet.

b

[bernie]

i like your thought process but...

he could more likely have 2s or 5s than 9s.

another little test is if you were really sure it was a good fold/read, you wouldnt be posting it here asking. this may mean you weren't that sure, hence, should've called.

it's only 1 bet and you sleep better knowing. the better question would've been, 'could i have folded this on the river?'

but now you're just left wondering

b

[Mike Gallo]

The only way I stop the raising war there is when you pry the mouse out of my cold dead fingers.

From your Kung Fu grip fingers...would have sounded a lot funnier,however for some reason, your comment has me laughing out loud. Funny Gregg,funny stuff /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mike Gallo]

The pot has become too big for you to fold.

I think everyone pretty much has told you that you made a mistake by folding for one bet on the river.

Do you see why?

Oh, welcome to the forum /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

Of how preflop mistakes or generally small (I think raising PF would have been correct but its debatable) and post flop mistakes are huge. My first thought was 98s but there are atleast 5 hands more likely than the straight all of which you beat.

Yeah I'm not a stranger anymore. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bunky9590]

Yeah it was kinda funny, the fact that I'm stone cold serious makes it even funnier yet.

[blackaces13]

I'm gathering from the responses that a lot of people here advocate open-raising PF with pocket 8's in middle-position. I'm not a very experienced player so I'm sure I'm wrong here but this just doesn't seem logical to me.

Raising with a medium pair in a 2/4 online game here is pretty much going to assure you 3 or 4 opponents. Isn't this a bad number for a medium pocket pair? It is my understanding that most of the value from these hands comes from flopping a set, so by making it 2 bets and knocking some players out you reduce your implied odds and only get 3:1 on the flop as opposed to more if you'd let people in cheap. Being that you'll only flop your set about 1 in 8 times this is a hand I wouldn't want to invest too much money in since I'd likely have to throw it away. Also, in this instance he would have likely been 3 bet before the flop and that's a bad situation.

So what are the benefits of open raising here? If the flop misses you it will almost certainly have at least 1 overcard and you are in bad postion. Do you automatically bet the flop and represent an over-pair? In a low limit game I don't know if this is a winning play. The amount of times you'll win a pot without a showdown will be far outweighed by those you get shown top pair on the river in my opinion. Again, I'm sure I'm wrong here but I have no idea why.

[bicyclekick]

No way in hell I'm laying this down.

[Luke]

Raise preflop first in from MP with 88.

Consider 3 betting the turn.

DO NOT FOLD THE RIVER.

Luke

[ScottTheFish]

I think open raising with 88 is good, but it's the lowest PP I'll raise with in MP. 77 or 66 i probably limp, lower than that I'll dump unless I'm very sure It won't get raised.

Here is my reasoning with 88, hopefully someone will correct me if it's faulty.

1. There is a good chance you have the best hand.

2. It gives you a better chance to win without a showdown by showing some strength.

3. It ties people to the pot if you hit your set.

If I open raise MP with 88, and miss the flop but it's not too scary, I'll bet out. If I get raised or get more than 1 caller, I'm pretty sure I'm behind. If the turn is no help I'm usually out.

Someone let me know if this is sound thinking, or if I'm on crack as usual /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

The key factor in this hand for why an open raise was correct is that he was the first one in the pot. By rasing and showing strength he has a chance to win the hand preflop or if the flop misses him he may still win by betting out into a few opponents. Thus by raising he has increased the ways in which he could win the hand.

[Justaloser]

I think you're looking for monsters.

Sure he could have T7, 57 or 99, but he could have just as easily A9, 92, 96, or 98 if he is that loose.

If he's loose enough to play 57 for 4 bets, I'd pay him off this time, and collect it back later.

[blackaces13]

Yeah, but how often does ANY hand in a low limit game get taken down before the flop? I'd say exactly never. And it gets taken down before a showdown EXTREMELY rarely. So rarely in fact that the times it happens (and you drag a small pot) don't seem to even come close to making up for the bets you'd be throwing away by "representing strength" against multiple loose callers who wouldn't fold top pair under any circumstances. And I don't think adding in the extra bets you get pre-flop when you hit your set are enough to make it worth it either, notice that you're also reducing your implied odds with a preflop raise because there are less people to pay off your set for the rest of the hand. So, I'm still not convinced that there's a good reason to raise this hand in mid-position in a loose game. I didn't say that I'm positive its not the correct play either, just that I'm not convinced yet.

[ScottTheFish]

Lee Jones recommends raising all pairs AA-88 in middle position in loose low limit games, for the reasons I listed, and that's good enough for me, plus my pokertracker stats for 4,000 hands at 1/2 say it's been profitable so far.

You won't push anyone off top pair, you're right. But you may push someone off second or 3rd pair on the flop, or push them out of sticking around and pairing their overcards.

Anyway the main reasons to raise IMO is there's a good chance you have the best hand, and to tie people to the pot if you hit.

In any case according to MK and Clarkmeister, these types of close preflop decisions won't make much difference in your win rate in the long run, so either way is probably fine.