I like the Bike - narrow flop bet

[slavic]

At the Bike and let me tell you I really like this place. It's not as big as the commerce but I haven't left the place yet with less than a spare 25 BB's, and the players and staff are a lot nicer. Dropping when there is no flop still bothers me, but when I'm in So Cal or No Cal what other choice do you get?

So I'm in a new 4/8 about 4 rounds in. As a side note I couldn't get into a 6/12 and no 10/20 was running. I assume that 10/20 just isn't spread that often, but it would have been nice to have a choice between 6/12 and 20/40. This is your traditional SoCal low limit game, lots of callers few raisers, and plenty of short buyers on the rail in case someone goes bust.

I'm in the CO

UTG open limps, as expected this causes a 4 person limp fest to me in the CO. I have 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif and over limp, button calls, sb calls and BB calls. 8 to the flop

(8sb)Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The field checks to me (what no 2?) and I bet on the theory I'm going to call anyway, button folds, SB calls, EP calls, MP calls and MP2 calls.

5 to the Turn(6.5BB)7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checks to MP1 who bets, he likes to bluff a lot and will bet most hands that apear to miss everyone. In several cases he has bet into me on the turn after I showed strenght on the flop or pre-flop. In almost all cases I raised so in this case I guess he hasn't quite got it yet. At this point he likely has a heart draw, and a raise probably doesn't help me since other callers won't fold allowing me to steal on the end. MP2 calls (very weak calling station), I call,SB folds and EP calls (she could play well at times but reverted to a CS when I was in a hand)

River(10.5BB): 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checks to me I bet and all fold. (hmm guess my heart draw read was right)

Ok so let's talk about the flop bet, would it be better to try for the free card here or is the bet correct. I like the bet just because I like to bet, I think it does good things for me. Like clean up 8's and T's, but is being in such good position passing and hoping for a free card from the button that bad? If I was in EP I would almost always bet it, but does the position change the play?

FYI if I was on the button I think I would have taken the free card.

[Luke]

Hi slavic,

I like your play on all streets except the flop. You really don't have much of a hand right there except for a couple backdoor draws. I'd just check and hope the button checks as well giving you a free card.

As for clearing up your 8 and 10 outs - the idea has some merit but honestly, the pot is small and you are very likely behind. I'd rather bet than call too, but there's only one player left to act behind you so you probably won't be faced with a decision to call.

Besides, don't you think it's a thin call if the button bets and there are a few callers to you?

Luke

[Aces McGee]

If you would've taken the free card on the button, I don't see why you'd bet in the CO -- unless you KNEW the button would bet.

McGee

[Luke]

If I was in EP I would almost always bet it, but does the position change the play?

I found this very interesting. You'd almost always bet this from say, the big blind? Maybe I'm missing something here but I'm check/folding in most spots. I know it's a garbage board that you caught a small piece of but still, there are a bunch of opponents that for the most part aren't going anywhere anytime soon - so why would you bet out here?

[slavic]

Think of it this way, if you had 2 overcards and it was one bet to you would you play on this board? How is my hand any different than 2 overcards, in fact because of my position I'm willing to bet it's a lot better than 2 overcards.

[slavic]

unless you KNEW the button would bet

See that's just it, most buttons will bet here are good portion of the time. Wouldn't it be tragic to have the button bet and the SB raise on you? However if there is a good chance the Button will pass also why not take the pass? I think I have too much of the flop to risk being raised out, but I'm not convinced so if somone can show me a compelling argument to pass I'm all for it. In this case I think it's 60/40 the button bets.

[Lost Wages]

On the flop you are only one check away from a free card so I think your chances of seeing the turn for free outweigh the benifit of betting. Plus you might be raised by the button or checkraised by a blind. If you check and the button bets then you can close the action.

It's not like you can bet the flop and then take the free river card because if you don't improve on the turn a free river isn't likely to do you much good.

Lost Wages

[Lost Wages]

Wouldn't it be tragic to have the button bet and the SB raise on you?

No that would be a relief because then I could fold with a clear conscience. Tragic would be if you bet and the SB checkraised.

Lost Wages

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it be tragic to have the button bet and the SB raise on you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it be nearly as tragic if you bet and the SB raised?

Maybe I'm missing something. But I'd like to get to the turn cheaply. If I can't do it for one bet, at most, then I don't want to do it at all.

McGee

[slavic]

No that would be a relief because then I could fold with a clear conscience

I don't think this fold would be correct. I think you are correct to call the 2 bets.

[Lost Wages]

If the button bet and the SB raised and everyone called and you were sure that the button would only call and not reraise then you would be getting about 9:1 (before rake) to call 2 cold. That's best case. I think you are grossly overestimating the value of a 3 straight flush. Even if you pick up a straight or flush draw on the turn you will miss the river 4 times out of 5. Look at Bob T's recent post on effective odds.

Lost Wages

[slavic]

It depends on the action but I think 8 to 1 is what your looking for on a call here, if it's raised. I mis counted and the SB raise would give me 6 to 1. so a fold would be good unless there was a couple of cold calls.

Here is the deal though, I think the SB is correct to check raise with a pair of 3's here if the button bets. So I need to estimate his holding and readjust. There are a lot of hands that may be checkraised from EP that I would want to play against. Even if it's me they checkraise.

[tripdad]

this is my first post here, so take it for what it's worth, but i personally would have folded pre-flop. after that, i like the flop bet, as well as the rest of it. you said it was the 4th round, so the players are not quite familiar w/you (though you seem to have them pegged?). if it were me playing against you, i would either fold or raise, not call. this gives you the info you need to continue.

cheers!

[Rico Suave]

Hey Slavic:

Help a newbie understand here.

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on the action but I think 8 to 1 is what your looking for on a call here, if it's raised

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you figuring this as an 8:1 call.
What are you counting as outs here----any T (3 outs), 1.5 outs for backdoor flush, 1 outs for backdoor straight?

--Rico

[slavic]

On the flop I thought I had somewhere between 8 and 5 to 6 outs depending on how you count your backdoors. The action really did say no 9's to me.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
No that would be a relief because then I could fold with a clear conscience. Tragic would be if you bet and the SB checkraised.


[/ QUOTE ]
Abso-freakin-lutely.

-ropey

[slavic]

though you seem to have them pegged?

Not completely pegged, but after 36 hands I can start narrowing down players into their classes. Again you adjust constantly. If you play with MajorKong you might peg him for weak tight right up until he takes all your chips.

As for these players most of them were unaware except for EP she was giving me respect simply because I showed good hands. One of the players simply told me I was an action player because I raised a good deal, he never made the connection between my play and my hands.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of hands that may be checkraised from EP that I would want to play against. Even if it's me they checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't mind playing against a checkraise, then I don't see why it's so bad to have the button bet and the SB raise, as oppose to having the SB raise your bet. And since you certainly don't mind a free card, why not knuckle and give it the chance to check through?

McGee

[slavic]

Aces - As you pointed out the correct play is to fold if the button is checkraised and no callers come along. I can't really call on the flop then and likely fold in a profitable situation thus losing according to the TOP.

[Aces McGee]

Right. So if you bet, button folds, SB checkraises and no one calls, it's no good either.

Right?

McGee

[ropey]

Unbelievable...I don't understand wanting to call two bets with virtually nothing. Save your money for when you actually have a hand.

-ropey

[slavic]

I didn't say I wanted to.

[slavic]

So if you bet, button folds, SB checkraises and no one calls, it's no good either. Right?

I think he may be doing you a service. In general I don't think it's the same at all. Let's say you bet and the SB raises, if it clears everyone out you are then getting 11 to 1 closing the action and a very clean T. Possibly a clean 8 if he will semibluff the low straight or checkraise something like 55. You likely are behind but your not hurting.

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this fold would be correct. I think you are correct to call the 2 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

[slavic]

Read the follow up to that, I miss counted the action. I thought I was getting 8 to 1 from his response not 6 to 1.

[Aces McGee]

You'll be getting 11 to 1, but you could've had infinite odds if it got checked through.

I just think betting here is tying yourself to a pot that you don't wan't to get involved in. You're not gonna win the hand right then, you're unlikely to thin the field significantly, you don't have the best hand, and you risk putting two bets with a hand that could easily have to go runner-runner to win.

I'm gonna lay off this one for a while, see what some others have to say. Hopefully, this post will stay near the top and generate some more responses.

Thanks for making me think.

McGee

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think betting here is tying yourself to a pot that you don't wan't to get involved in. You're not gonna win the hand right then, you're unlikely to thin the field significantly, you don't have the best hand, and you risk putting two bets with a hand that could easily have to go runner-runner to win.


[/ QUOTE ]
Aces, this is a great summary of the position slavic is in...you've read my mind. I just don't see the point in getting involved with this hand.

-ropey

[ropey]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of it this way, if you had 2 overcards and it was one bet to you would you play on this board? How is my hand any different than 2 overcards, in fact because of my position I'm willing to bet it's a lot better than 2 overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well slavic, I think you have a point here about this hand playing similar to overcards...and I will take it a step further and say that it plays similar not just to two overcards, but any two cards. The difference is that you seem to be playing this as a semi-bluff; but I would call it more of just a bluff. Runner runner possibilities help your hand out, but IMO not enough to call it a semi-bluff.

If there are 2-3 people in this pot, you could make an argument to bet with two overcards or a 72o...but in a pot this multiway, it seems to me that you are attempting a 'semi-bluff' that will almost never thin the field as much as you need, and has very long odds of actually making you a winning hand. Thus, you are simply throwing bets away, creating a pot that may eventially give you the correct odds to draw to.

Just my two cents.

-ropey

[Louie Landale]

"Bet since I'm going to call anyway" applies when [1] you are in early position (not late),and [2] You will wish you had bet if everyone checks. In your case the pot is relatively small vis-a-vis the number of opponents, your hand is NOT worth calling on the flop, and you are in late position. Your free card now is worth a WHOLE lot more than paying 1sb to get a "free" turn card.

Anyway, looks like a good time to raise the turn against THIS player. Nobody has much and you are definately in the hunt to steal, even in this loose game.

- Louie

[rharless]

It seems to me that one of the advantages of having position here is that you know where you stand, and you can see the turn, all for free.