Ooops...I did it again: Another check-raise whiff

[The Bear]

Very different scenario than yesterday's hand, but a whiff nonetheless.

Party 3/6...typical table, no reads.

Bear has Th, Tc and is EP1

Bear raises, MP1 calls, Button 3-bets, SB calls, UTG folds, Bear calls, MP1 calls

Flop(13 SB): 3c, 5d, 7s

SB checks, Bear checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Bear raises, MP1 calls, Button 3-bets (ouch!), SB calls, Bear calls, MP1 calls

Turn(12 1/2 BB): Ts
Hi-OOOOOOO!!

SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button checks
NOOOOOOOOOOO!!

River(12 1/2 BB): Ad

SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls, SB calls

Can I be forgiven for this one or did I blow it again?

[trillig]

I think your forgiven...

One would expect a bet when it's 3-bet at flop, I suspect someone trying for free river on a draw or attempting to thin the field...

-t

[J.R.]

I'd be tempted to try for a river check-raise /images/graemlins/shocked.gif but you played this well.

[bunky9590]

No way do I give a spade draw a free card there. Bet again, hope the button raises you, again. And then three bet his sorry self. Bet, Bet, Bet.

[Homer]

Against many opponents I will bet the turn expecting to be raised by an overpair. Against wussier opponents I'll go for the check-raise as you did.

-- Homer

[PocketRocketsBF]

I don't like this check-raise. The button played you like a fiddle for a free draw at the river.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this check-raise. The button played you like a fiddle for a free draw at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make any sense, as the button has no idea that I have pocket tens. Suppose the turn had come with another low card and the button had checked behind. Now his weak play has allowed ME to get a free draw at the river. So if the button plays this way regardless of the turn card (except a Q), which he probably will given our information, I benefit from his check much more often than he does.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this check-raise. The button played you like a fiddle for a free draw at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What check raise are you referring too? On the flop, check raising is hands down the best play. There is an excellent chance that his pair of tens is the best hand going but extemely vulnerable. He definately wants to thin the field and the check raise is best weaopon to do it.

When he spikes his set on the turn. Checkraising is a little more debateable. Most of the time the button is going to bet again after three betting the flop. If its early in his session it may not be a bad ideal to try a check raise again. The value of that checkraise is going to be realized in future hands as people will no longer assume you are weak just becuase you checked. This is a good time to make a play like this becuase A)You already checkraised on the flop, B)Even though your hand has vulnerabilities, you're not really afraid of a free card here.

Personally I like betting out and hopefully whipsawing MP1.

Both plays are valid depending on what you want to accomplish and nobody got played like a fiddle. Sometime hands just don't play out the way you expected them too.

Stu

[MrGrob]

NEVER MIND -- READ THE POST TOTALLY WRONG -- BUT answer is the same -- just bet, bet, bet, as everyone else said!!!

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this check-raise. The button played you like a fiddle for a free draw at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure this? The button three-bet pre-flop then three-bet again on the flop. His check on the turn sounds like he was spooked by all the callers and wanted a cheap showdown. Besides, what busted draw could he possibly have that he would call with on the river after all that action; especially after MP1 suddenly woke up and bet when the Ace fell? Also, unless he three-bet something like 68 pre-flop, there are no reasonable draws for him to try and buy a free card for. To me it looks like he is playing a big pair.

SpaceAce

[Jezebel]

Bear,
I am a big fan using checkraises when needed. After reading your last two posts on this subject, it seems that you are going for the hat trick too often. Your flop checkraises on both hands are great plays. It takes a special type of opponent to be able to checkraise them on two streets. It takes a real LAG to pull the checkraise hattrick on each street. I rarely try to checkraise more than one street, even if I think there is a good chance a bet will come from the raiser. If he is bold enough to bet into me on the turn after being checkraised on the flop, then he is usually bold enough to raise if I bet out and I get to 3 bet. If you are going to try for the double/triple checkraise you need to be sure your opponent has manianical tendencies.

BTW, I don't think your double checkraise attempts were horrible, they did seem to have a decent shot at suceeding. But betting out after checkraising someone is usually the best course of action.

[elindauer]

Hi Bear,

I think you can be forgiven for expecting the button to bet. That doesn't necessarily mean that going for a check-raise is the best play.

Here's the deal. All signs point to a big pair, right? So, do you expect this guy to slowdown and just call when that innocent looking ten hits the board, or is he going to raise again? He'll almost certainly slow down and just call if you check-raise again. So, by betting out, you may get 3 bets in, while going for a check-raise will almost guarantee you exactly two.

I'd bet against aggressive opponents, and check against more passive opponents.


my 2 cents.


PS... after the button checks, his hand reeks of AK. When the ace hits the river, check-raising there may have been the best play.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the deal. All signs point to a big pair, right? So, do you expect this guy to slowdown and just call when that innocent looking ten hits the board, or is he going to raise again? He'll almost certainly slow down and just call if you check-raise again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind, though, that if our friend TheBear bets out on the turn, he'll be betting into a preflop and flop 3bettor. Surely, there are some times when his opponent will see this as a "two-pair-or-better" show of strength, and slow down.

I still like betting out, though, because it guarantees you one bet and gives the possibility for three, rather than earning only zero or two (unless he overplays and 3bets after being checkraised).

McGee

[The Bear]

Thanks again everyone.

Results: Button had QQ and SB had JJ, and Bear missed some bets. As I said to my buddy yesterday, what's the point of putting a terrible beat on someone if you don't get paid off?

Comments: Some of you suggested leading the turn, hoping for the button to raise, so that I can 3-bet. Thus I have the potential to get 3-bets instead of two. But what you failed to recognize is that I can probably trap the SB for the turn check-raise, allowing me to gain 4-bets instead of 2 or 3. This play does not need to work often to be correct. If the SB had put in the last raise on the flop, I would have led the turn every time.

Later.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I can probably trap the SB for the turn check-raise, allowing me to gain 4-bets instead of 2 or 3.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the SB needs trapping. He called 2.66 bets prefop, then called another three on the flop, including when it came back to him for two more bets. Why would the turn be any different? Betting out gives you the opportunity to collect as many as three bets from BOTH opponents.

McGee