How did I do?

[Justaloser]

$2/4 35% see the flop. typical table, 9 handed.

I'm dealt J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif on the button.

First two players limp, folded to me. I limp and blinds come along. Is this an obvious raise? The few hands I've seen, I've seen showdowns with bottom pair and K high.

5 SB--Flop is
4 /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

First three check, UTG+1 bets, I reraise. 3 fold. UTG+1 calls.

4 1/2 BB--Turn is
A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

He checks, I check.

River is 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks, I bet, he calls.

Well?

[Joe Tall]

I think you missed a bet on the turn.

Your opponent could have a flush or straight draw and bet out on this flop. I don't see him having a stronger Q as I would have think KQ would have raised preflop.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[biggambler]

If he has 4 hearts, you let him see the river for free. I think a bet on the turn is needed.

[Vee Quiva]

The aggressive player would raise preflop and bet the turn. My guess is that it would have been checked to you on the flop so I don't know if you necessarily lost any money by not raising.

Yours was more conservative. By checking through on the turn you did induce him to call on the river.

I don't see much of problem playing it either way.

[Lost Wages]

I would't raise preflop. With 2 EP limpers they could easily have AQ/AJ/KQ/KJ. If they were late limpers then a raise would be more reasonable.

On the flop you have an easy raise with top pair decent kicker.

The turn is a seroius mistake. When it's headsup you can't backoff to a single overcard. You are giving him a free card if he was betting the flop with a flush draw. Checking behind on the turn invites him to bet the river with any two cards which you will have to call, so why not just bet the turn yourself and check behind on the river if you don't improve? If you're checkraised on the turn you can fold against a sane opponent.

Lost Wages

[MikeyObviously]

well, i'd toss JQo preflop...but lets pretend i would of played it.

I like the flop play, but i'd bet through the ace on the turn. Checking on the turn gives your hand away. If the guy has an ace at all, he has aces up if that makes sense (the guy limped and bet from early position. its hard to tell exactly what he has at that point alone, but you know that if he has an ace in his hand...the other hole card is already paired). So bet the turn...if you get check raised toss it...otherwise bet for value.

[Justaloser]

He turns over Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

MHIG

[Justaloser]

I think you missed a bet on the turn. Your opponent could have a flush or straight draw and bet out on this flop.

You're right.

Even though I think that I got as many bets in as I could, by not betting the turn, I let him draw for free.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

well, i'd toss JQo preflop...but lets pretend i would of played it.

If Justaloser has some confidence in his read that this is a loose table, I think JQo on the button is definitely playable. I probably would have come in for a raise, though.

Flop: Being the PF raiser, it would be more likely to be checked to me. If that happens it's an obvious bet, and if UTG+1 bets as he did in the real hand, I would raise.

Turn: Bet. If raised, call and check/call the river.

River: Bet unless raised on the turn.

[Saborion]

Is this really a hand worth raising with pre-flop? It`s not that good a hand, and in case he do flop a Q like he did here, he have the option to raise any bet and thus make it to expensive for some draws to call.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I would argue that at a loose-ish low limit table, he is ahead of many hands that are limped with, even in EP. In addition, raising preflop from the button gives him strong leverage to adapt to the flop. If the flop comes king or ace high and it's bet, he folds; if it's checked to him, he can easily represent a solid top pair. Also, I can't see many draws folding here for one bet or two, and I don't think that limping preflop with the intent of raising on the flop to knock out weak draws is a legitimate play.

[Saborion]

Representing a big pair doesn`t always accomplish it`s purpose. And limping pre-flop instead of raising with a medium hand, with the possibility to raise the flop, just as in this case isn`t a legitimate play?

[bunky9590]

First of all. I would NEVER RAISE with QJo in that situation. QJs you could make a case for.

I bet the turn as well. Don't be afraid of the Ace until you have a reason to be afraid.

[Justaloser]

If Justaloser has some confidence in his read that this is a loose table, I think JQo on the button is definitely playable. I probably would have come in for a raise, though.

At this table, there was no chance I was going to fold QJo on the button.

I was not worried about a raise from the blinds. The only question preflop was whether I should raise or not.

I was interested in what everyone thought about my play on the turn. At the time, I was thinking that if he was going to checkraise, then I stopped him and would induce a bluff on the river. The free card draw for the flush didn't cross my mind. Which is a leak that I'm fixing now.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

After giving it some thought, I can see where limping preflop and raising on the flop to kill weak draws has its uses, but I don't think I would try it at low limit, where I have a very tough time getting any draw to fold.

Bunky, I rarely raise QJo, but I think this is the spot for it. You have position and (if the EP callers are loose) likely the best hand. However, as this is still a marginal hand, I want to give myself the best possible chance of taking this hand down on the flop or turn with no showdown.

If someone has a clear explanation why I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it...I have a tough time with hands like QJo.

[Saborion]

Until recently I always tossed this one away pre-flop since I think it`s a money-maker, but only a tiny one. I`m starting to play it now, but I seriously doubt it`s a hand you want to raise with pre-flop, unless you`re trying to steal the blinds.

[Justaloser]

If someone has a clear explanation why I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it...I have a tough time with hands like QJo.

I can't give you a clear explanation but QJ does not do well heads up, which could happen if you raise. The other aspect is with a limp, it's easy to throw the hand away if I miss the flop. If you raised preflop, you'd likely get it checked to you on the flop and would you bet even if you missed the flop? Against 4 loose callers?

I wouldn't. I think then you'd just be giving your chips away.

[BugsBunny]

HEFAP pg 32:

first remember that QJo is considered a Group 5 hand.

"...if there are already callers, only normally raise with hands in Groups 1-3, and sometimes with Group 4 hands (except if there are many players, do not raise with unsuited high cards, but conversely be somehat inclined to raise with hands as weak as Group 5 if they are straight flush combinations)."

There's more about the reasoning behind this, exceptions, etc - the normal good stuff found in there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It gets interesting at the bottom of pg 33/top of pg 34 where a case is given where QJo (among others) *should* be raised in LP.

"...when you are against one or two callers who play poorly and did not enter the pot from the early positions (and thus probably have weak hands). If you have a playable hand that would prefer to play against a small number of opponents, and you believe that your raise will fold everyone out behind you, then you should raise. This would include hands like A7s, KJ, QJ, and even a hand as weak as QT. However if you don't think that everyone behind you will fold you should not make this play and even consider folding some of these hands (e.g. QJ and QT)"

So the bottom line is that you're not really wrong in this case. This is almost textbook what's being described except that the callers *are* coming in from EP - but the caliber of player is less than what DS is talking about as well. If you're confident that you can get the blinds to fold then a raise would be appropriate here.

Check the book for more details.

[AAmaz0n]

My understanding of unsuited high cards like this is that they don't play well in multiway pots, so my thought has been to raise in late postion to eliminate the blinds and reduce the number of opponents.

My experience in playing low limit, however, is that the blinds rarely fold and you just wind up playing the hand for two bets instead of one with the same number of opponents. I've been limping more now with unsuited connected cards like this and raising only if they are suited, and even then not all the time.

My concern with limpers from early position would be that I could have kicker problems if I hit my card. AQ and KQ are likely, leaving me way behind if the Q flops. I have to agree with Lost Wages that a raise would be much more reasonable with limpers from later position.

the turn begs for a bet. Keep your foot on the gas until you get raised back.

just my thoughts,

Shauna